5 ways to improve the Raid Finder
by Matthew Rossi 
Dec 15th 2011 at 9:00PM
The Raid Finder does the job of making complex raid content accessible for players who might otherwise never get to see these fights and it does it well. That being said, there have been some issues with loot, player behavior, and even the way the Raid Finder selects players in my runs that I wanted to address, aspects that could be improved or streamlined to give us all a better Raid Finder experience.
1. Need Plus system adjustments First off, while adding class restrictions to loot in the Dragon Soul Raid Finder was a good start, there still need to be some alterations to the way the Need Plus loot system works. Right now, the system works by role and gives its role bonus based purely on if you are tanking, DPSing or healing. So if you're an enhancement shaman and a caster DPS item drops, you can roll need on it and get the role bonus even though you're not a caster. The system needs to be modified so it's aware of spec in a meaningful way. If you signed up to melee or cast spells, then you shouldn't be rolling on gear intended for the opposite and winning it over people who came to do exactly that role.
2. Tweaks to duplicates items and lucky rollers Another way the loot system could improve is in how it handles duplicate items and lucky rollers. Right now, if two of an item (the bracers off of Morchok, say) drop and someone rolls need on both, he or she could win both. In fact, this has happened to me every single time I've killed Morchok. While I'm aware that random rolls are random, a modification of the role bonus may be in order here, so that if you roll on and win a piece of loot and an exact duplicate item has also dropped and you already rolled need on it, you don't get your full role bonus on the second item. For that matter, perhaps remove it entirely for the second roll (and only that roll). While this would penalize people trying to get two of something for offset or dual wielding, it would combat the phenomenon of one person winning all the gear.
3. Bonus decay for lucky rollers Speaking of that, there needs to be a system in place that adjusts things so that if one player has won a significant majority of the gear from a run, he or she starts to lose some role bonus. While the form this role bonus decay would take could vary, the idea of one person walking off with six to seven drops from one Raid Finder run while everyone else gets nothing seems harshly punishing, especially considering how everyone is now locked to being unable to roll on any further gear from the bosses they killed, even if they won nothing, until the next week.
4. Weekly boss lockouts review These are of course all loot-related concerns, as is the idea that the Raid Finder should allow you to roll on loot twice a week rather than only once per half of the Dragon Soul raid. In my opinion, limiting Raid Finder loot to a weekly lockout per boss defeats the purpose of making a more accessible raid. We don't restrict Dungeon Finder heroics to only granting loot once per day, even though normal heroics lock out on a daily basis. Just as random daily heroic instances allow us to roll repeatedly on gear, so should the Raid Finder, at least so long as it is also granting valor points.
5. Player persistence My final issue with the Raid Finder, and the one that annoys me more than all of the former combined (those are all minor in the grand scheme of things, since they involve loot, and loot rules can always be tweaked and changed), is that at present I'm seeing a lot of people immediately drop group after a wipe in the Raid Finder, even when it is clearly due to a momentary hiccough that will most likely be smoothed over in the next attempt. This can often lead to a cycle of dropping and joining that can delay another attempt, sometimes greatly so. Perhaps the penalty for dropping needs to be significant in length (an hour or more), since at present, I have no idea if there even is a penalty for dropping a Raid Finder group.
So now that I've listed my mercenary quibbles (and quibbles they are, for the most part), I ask you what you think would improve the Raid Finder. Backwards compatibility, allowing you to pug out older raids? Allowing larger groups of Real ID friends to queue together? Cross-faction Raid Finder? What would you like to see?
Brace yourselves for what could be some of most exciting updates to the game recently with patch 4.3. Review the official patch notes, and then dig into what's ahead: new item storage options, cross-realm raiding, cosmetic armor skinning and your chance to battle the mighty Deathwing -- from astride his back!
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Raiding, Cataclysm
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 8)
Micheal Dec 15th 2011 9:06PM
I disagree with your points 3 and 4. A lucky player doesn't deserve the system removing his luck for him. Or her. If that player is lucky this week, at least they won't be rolling on the same item next week.
As for multiple loots per lockout, no no and no. This isn't a dungeon, this is a dumbed down raid awarding top quality loot. I didn't get into an uproar over cheating top guilds to now see people suggest we should allow multiple looting of the same boss per week.
jrussellp.moose Dec 15th 2011 9:20PM
It would be nice if that were true.
In my experience, people roll need on anything they can, simply because they can. This is exacerbated by having Raid Finder only available once per week.
Literaltruth Dec 15th 2011 9:26PM
Yup, I agree with your disagreement on points 3 and 4.
It's the nature of random looting that sometimes people get a lucky streak. The results are random and they have no way of influencing them - and shouldn't be penalised just because other players are getting annoyed they haven't won anything yet. Also, if there was a loot decay system per run, players would just as likely drop out of that run as soon as they had won their first item. I know I wouldn't be sticking around for 2 more bosses if the fact that I had won something on the first 2 meant I probably won't be able to win anything on them even if I have the best roll.
For point 4, Blizzard would be crazy to implement multiple loot rolls per week. The loot lockout is almost certainly not there to gate people's progression in terms of loot - but specifically discourage people spending days and days farming the LFR version for gear before rolling into normal already hating the place. It would be like hanging a sign over the raid saying "Roll up, roll up - come and get burnt out on the latest content in three days or your money back". People would be scrambling in the LFR to get their toons geared up for normal. The exploit that the top raiding guilds did in the first week, rolling through LFR over and over again to get your whole raid geared up for normals and heroics would become a standard part of progression.
Mycroft Dec 15th 2011 9:34PM
Agreed. Randomly distributed loot is random, they don't need the system fiddling with it. It should average out over time to be 'fair' based on purely (pseudo-) random rolls.
If it did have some sort of luck decay, then you'd have people theorycrafting on the best way to game the system. Need something from the 4th boss? Pass on all loot from bosses 1-3, even if it's upgrades. It might even hurt with the original point #5 - if I won something already, there's a decreased chance I'll win something else, so I'll just drop group and start over tomorrow. Or if the increased bad luck follows me from lockout to lockout, I'm less inclined to queue up at all.
Noyou Dec 15th 2011 9:36PM
I will agree with Micheal. It's not intended to be a loot pinata. It's main function is for non-raiders to see content. End of story. I am a non-raider. I will use it eventually to see content I normally would not. I am in the 5% (or whatever the minority number is) that doesn't play this game for loot. Sure it's nice. LFR already drops points per boss and some kick ass gear. I'm sure the loot thing will be ironed out in due time. It should drop the crafting plans and crafting mats- albeit, on a lower rate. It should be used as a tool to help a player advance in raiding, if they so choose. But it should not be an entitlement for anyone.
rovingbandit21 Dec 15th 2011 11:06PM
Look, lets not get caught up in the word "Raid". LFR is raid only in name. Anyone who has actually run a normal raid at the least will tell you a hallmark of that system is loot distribution. If I show up consistently for the raid team I will eventually get gear. Great system and completely opposite of how LFR works.
In LFR I queue up to do a raid with 24 other people who I will probably never see again and certainly don't care whether the piece that dropped is an upgrade for me. All they see is dice to roll need on and 30 gold or so to cover repairs. In normal pugs this is averted by the RL choosing to be a master looter, which is not available in LFR.
My point here is if loot will be distributed in the same way as the dungeons it can not have the same lockout as a raid, simply because of the random nature of the people you are downing Deathwing with. I do think a valid solution would be to allow each player to win one piece of off each boss for the week. It keeps players happy which keeps queue times low in the long term, and stops folks from farming LFR endlessly throughout the week.
I really have come to believe that people telling others to STFU and color instead of speaking up against a bad system somehow feel threatened by the fact that they will see someone not in a wannabe HC guild fully decked out in T13 before they are.
AngrySlob Dec 15th 2011 11:18PM
I also strongly disagree with point 3, it is totally unnecessary. It doesn't bother me if people get 'overly' lucky in RF, it all evens out in the long run.
wow Dec 16th 2011 4:32AM
I've been in a raid where a winner's rolled need on 3 items, ALL of which he already had equipped, and he's won the lot. Do not assume that because someone already has an item that this means they will not roll again ^^
In A World (XBL) Dec 16th 2011 5:51AM
They need to remove the vendor sell price from these LFR items and flag them to make you automatically pass if you've won them before (just like the holiday dungeons). Drastic but necessary to curb the ninja crap.
Matheus314 Dec 16th 2011 8:02AM
What 'In A World (XBL)' said. A thousand times.
People are so greedy, that even if you make it cost 1 copper they'll roll on it and make you lose your upgrade.
Docseuzz Dec 16th 2011 8:12AM
My fix for the double win - you lose your bonus if you already have that item in your inventory/bank (or equivalent gear for tokens)- even from a previous run. You can still roll need - but someone in that role who actually needs it will win out.
Aaron Dec 16th 2011 8:26AM
Agreed, #3 and #4 are bogus. If #3 is implemented it will lead to people dropping raid as soon as they win something. I'm 100% sure that is what I would do.
#4 would lead to people farming LFR and then never coming back. Blizzard wants people to come back week after week, that is how they keep em hooked to WoW and not SWTOR, you see. Furthermore, if you could farm LFR then 3 months from now it would just be alts queing.
Tala Dec 16th 2011 9:30AM
I like Docseuzz's idea about gear already won. Some us do regularly use two sets of gear and they overlap just enough to be the same item gemmed and enchanted differently (think bear/ cat).
It's not really fair to get a full roll bonus on your second tier helm (Sorry, guilty!) but as is, greed seems to pointless to choose in LFR. Some compromise would be nice.
morrie.berglas Dec 16th 2011 10:52AM
The best way to solve 1-4 is to award each player in the raid a BoP satchel for killing a boss, hence no rolling at all. The satchels have a 15% chance to drop a BoP token which can be turned in to a vendor for an iLvl 384 item (BoP). The other 85% of the time you get a gem or a flask or similar.
morrie.berglas Dec 16th 2011 10:56AM
I should add to that the token is not item-specific, it can be turned in for a Neck piece or a T13 Chest piece or even a second Chest piece if you wanted to gem it differently for your off spec. Another advantage of this is that, for example, a warrior can clear it as DPS to gear up their tank spec so they can tank it too without having any negative consequences on the real tanks in the run.
zmalmquist Dec 16th 2011 11:03AM
#3 is just being looked at wrong. Everyone gets an increasing roll bonus per boss kill until they win something. For example, 5 extra points per boss kills. You kill all 8 without a drop, and next week your next roll would add 40. This would keep players from rolling on things they really don't need and evens out the loot distribution. The only reason random rolls exists, is because it is the simplest form of fairness. However the LFR system brings out everything that is wrong with random rolls.
On LFR, and I know others are in the same boat, my dice are broken so bad that I am running less than 1% on wins. Thats calculating 4 toons run on every boss these last 3 weeks. If my toons could use an upgrade in every slot on 5 mans, like they do in LFR, I know my win ratio would be a lot higher. In short, I consider the loot system on LFR broken. I no longer que for fresh LFR, but instead hold out for 3/4 completion. Knocking out 500 VP in under an hour is truly the best value. Let others waste their time clearing the first 3 bosses for extremley poor chance at wins.
Infinite Duck Dec 16th 2011 12:12PM
I only really agree with 1, but they already said they'd make the system smarter to detect specs in the future, but most likely not till MoP. I'm still fine waiting for it. The class lock outs at least bandaid fix most of the looting issues for wrong spec/class.
I won tier 13 shoulders, two pieces dropped. I needed on both, I won the second. If it had locked me out from rolling on the second, I wouldn't have tier 13 shoulders. I do not think it should ever lock someone out from rolling on both. It should however, roll them out as one piece and the top two rolls get it, or if you win the first one ignore the roll for the second.
RNG is random. If someone gets lucky, they get lucky. I went through all of bc without a any tier head piece, I never won the drop or it didn't drop. I laughed about it. I never cried, blizzard needs to give everyone else in my guild a diminished roll so i could have a head piece. In wotlk, it was booties. I could never win booties or they just wouldn't dorp for me. It's the way things go.
Now that aside, I might agree see diminished rolls if someone has an equal item level or higher in that slot. Most likely no bonus, or if they don't even get a bonus a dimished roll. The reality is, sometimes an item of lesser/equal item level is better than what someone is wearing. Now for the most part I don't think that situation would happen often in LFR at this point, but looking into the future, it could. Or perhaps someone has the valor shoulders and wants the tier shoulders for their 4 piece bonus. If you force them not to roll because they have an higher item level, well you are screwing him out of his 4 piece bonus. Is that fair?
Putting more restrictions in will hurt players worse or just as badly as bad RNG.
SamLowry Dec 16th 2011 3:37PM
"It's not intended to be a loot pinata. It's main function is for non-raiders to see content. End of story."
Har-de-har-har.
If LFR was indeed just meant as a tour through a raid, then how about removing loot drops altogether? How about removing the fights altogether? Maybe Deathwing should just pull up a chair and regale us with stories about what it was that brought him to this moment in his life.
dhytspam Dec 16th 2011 9:29PM
2 can be fixed easily. Put a x2 logo above or around the item or loot window. All rollers will roll on that window and the top 2 will win one each.
Ethereal Dec 17th 2011 1:59PM
My idea for #4 was to lockout a boss loot when you actually win an item from that boss (per week) instead of on roll.. enabling ppl to run LFR multiple times and at least get something out of the run.
Heck for the sake of the argument you could say that per week you are allowed to win as many items as #of bosses.. so 8 bosses in Dragon Soul = minimum 8 wins per week.. if you happen to win more in a run then good luck to you.