Patch 5.4 patch notes
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The latest patch 5.4 news5 ways to improve the Raid Finder
by Matthew Rossi 
Dec 15th 2011 at 9:00PM
The Raid Finder does the job of making complex raid content accessible for players who might otherwise never get to see these fights and it does it well. That being said, there have been some issues with loot, player behavior, and even the way the Raid Finder selects players in my runs that I wanted to address, aspects that could be improved or streamlined to give us all a better Raid Finder experience.
1. Need Plus system adjustments First off, while adding class restrictions to loot in the Dragon Soul Raid Finder was a good start, there still need to be some alterations to the way the Need Plus loot system works. Right now, the system works by role and gives its role bonus based purely on if you are tanking, DPSing or healing. So if you're an enhancement shaman and a caster DPS item drops, you can roll need on it and get the role bonus even though you're not a caster. The system needs to be modified so it's aware of spec in a meaningful way. If you signed up to melee or cast spells, then you shouldn't be rolling on gear intended for the opposite and winning it over people who came to do exactly that role.
2. Tweaks to duplicates items and lucky rollers Another way the loot system could improve is in how it handles duplicate items and lucky rollers. Right now, if two of an item (the bracers off of Morchok, say) drop and someone rolls need on both, he or she could win both. In fact, this has happened to me every single time I've killed Morchok. While I'm aware that random rolls are random, a modification of the role bonus may be in order here, so that if you roll on and win a piece of loot and an exact duplicate item has also dropped and you already rolled need on it, you don't get your full role bonus on the second item. For that matter, perhaps remove it entirely for the second roll (and only that roll). While this would penalize people trying to get two of something for offset or dual wielding, it would combat the phenomenon of one person winning all the gear.
3. Bonus decay for lucky rollers Speaking of that, there needs to be a system in place that adjusts things so that if one player has won a significant majority of the gear from a run, he or she starts to lose some role bonus. While the form this role bonus decay would take could vary, the idea of one person walking off with six to seven drops from one Raid Finder run while everyone else gets nothing seems harshly punishing, especially considering how everyone is now locked to being unable to roll on any further gear from the bosses they killed, even if they won nothing, until the next week.
4. Weekly boss lockouts review These are of course all loot-related concerns, as is the idea that the Raid Finder should allow you to roll on loot twice a week rather than only once per half of the Dragon Soul raid. In my opinion, limiting Raid Finder loot to a weekly lockout per boss defeats the purpose of making a more accessible raid. We don't restrict Dungeon Finder heroics to only granting loot once per day, even though normal heroics lock out on a daily basis. Just as random daily heroic instances allow us to roll repeatedly on gear, so should the Raid Finder, at least so long as it is also granting valor points.
5. Player persistence My final issue with the Raid Finder, and the one that annoys me more than all of the former combined (those are all minor in the grand scheme of things, since they involve loot, and loot rules can always be tweaked and changed), is that at present I'm seeing a lot of people immediately drop group after a wipe in the Raid Finder, even when it is clearly due to a momentary hiccough that will most likely be smoothed over in the next attempt. This can often lead to a cycle of dropping and joining that can delay another attempt, sometimes greatly so. Perhaps the penalty for dropping needs to be significant in length (an hour or more), since at present, I have no idea if there even is a penalty for dropping a Raid Finder group.
So now that I've listed my mercenary quibbles (and quibbles they are, for the most part), I ask you what you think would improve the Raid Finder. Backwards compatibility, allowing you to pug out older raids? Allowing larger groups of Real ID friends to queue together? Cross-faction Raid Finder? What would you like to see?
Brace yourselves for what could be some of most exciting updates to the game recently with patch 4.3. Review the official patch notes, and then dig into what's ahead: new item storage options, cross-realm raiding, cosmetic armor skinning and your chance to battle the mighty Deathwing -- from astride his back!
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Raiding, Cataclysm
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 8)
Royal Dec 18th 2011 1:34AM
I agree raids need adjustments and I agree with a lot you said here.
One thing though...
Bonus decay for lucky rollers. It is soo annoying having one guy win all the loot from one boss. But in a random pug raid you need the carrot on the stick motivation to get people to stick around for the next boss. I would be more in favor of a gear limit per boss. You can roll on what you want but you get one item over all. Might have to wait until all the loot is rolled on but it would be worth the wait.
RedMosquito Dec 15th 2011 9:26PM
I really disagree with punishing someone for being lucky. Luck is luck, it's part of life. Unpredictability, randomness, surprises, even some frustration, are necessary to make things not dull. Imagine if, statistically, you knew for sure that if you roll on four items you'll eventually win one because everyone else will have decreased rolls... it just kills the expectation, the anticipation. It makes things boring.
The real concern is not lucky players, but players who roll need on everything, even things they don't actually need (which, of course, increases the chances of them winning anything). What should be implemented is a system to prevent players from doing that, not being merely lucky.
DracoSuave Dec 15th 2011 9:40PM
Unless it's Hagara or Madness, there is a system for people who think that greed starts with an 'n'.
Vote kick.
lethefile Dec 15th 2011 9:35PM
Penalizing players for rolling well is not good gameplay design. Rather, there should be consolation for players who got nothing that week.
If Blizzard can track whether we've rolled for loot on a boss, then it should be trivial to track whether or not we've won loot per week.
Mummrah Dec 16th 2011 4:23AM
There is. They get 250 valor points and some gold.
Matheus314 Dec 16th 2011 8:41AM
Lucky ones get it too. So... bad argument.
Enderwig Dec 15th 2011 9:36PM
They should make the LFR reset on Tuesdays and Saturdays (for the US). They already are (or were) experimenting with 2 lockouts per week in Taiwan, I believe. I think that could work out well for LFR.
N-train Dec 15th 2011 10:52PM
I guess I don't understand why the whole "two lockouts per week" thing will fix or improve anything. People are still going to hit the need button whenever its available, you still may get a group with 10 druids, people will still drop group as soon as that thing they wanted didn't drop, and you'll still have runs where that one guy wins like 6 drops in a row.
On top of this, while a double-lockout system seems reasonable, people seem to be forgetting that loot is really the only thing giving the RF any real longevity. If loot weren't a driving factor, then there'd be basically no reason for anyone to run it ever again once they beat Deathwing, especially considering you can get double the VP from the new heroics with half the time and hassle.
Yes, suffering through a megafacepalm group only to lose that one tier piece to the guy who died 90 seconds in sucks, but that doesn't mean that's a flaw in the system, as the ultimate goal was to allow those who couldn't raid to see raid content, if I recall correctly.
Everclear Dec 15th 2011 9:41PM
1 & 2 are far and away the biggest problem with LFR. So crippling, in fact, that I'm stunned Blizzard didn't fine tune the loot/roll system before releasing it. The LFR system was intended for hundreds of thousands of people to raid anonymously on random servers, so if there's ANYTHING you want perfect, it's the looting system. I'm tired of seeing three Hunters roll for two agility polearms, only to have the one Druid (who's resto) win both.
After 7 years of WoW, Blizzard should know that if you give the masses the ability to act like a douche in this game, the majority will take advantage of it every time.
Taking loot away from people who actually need it is unacceptable and should be enforced as such.
loop_not_defined Dec 15th 2011 10:49PM
Blizz is working on both, and intends to have #1 ready by MoP and #2 ready before then.
Sure, it would've been nice to have both ready to go by 4.3 launch, but the reality is that getting #1 in for Raid Finder would simply mean delaying Raid Finder until 5.0.
Martin Dec 16th 2011 1:18AM
Under the current system a resto druid (who was in that specific role at the time) would not win against a hunter who would receive a +100 role bonus.
So how did the resto druid win the polearm?
Everclear Dec 16th 2011 6:14AM
Then it must've been Boomkin. Had 119k mana, so my first thought was Resto.
Noyou Dec 15th 2011 9:44PM
#5 is going to come over time. As more and more people get used to the idea of raiding. The problem is, right now it seems many players are using it more for loot than to see content. This is going to leave a lot of people disenchanted with the whole thing. Especially those who have trouble reading and don't know how the loot/lockout system works.
J Dec 15th 2011 9:49PM
I understand a few things about Raid Finder now, after running it several times on a dps, a healer, and a tank.
1) If the raid wipes for any reason, it's over. The sheer amount of people that drop will guarantee that you're stuck in a cycle of queueing forever, addled further by the new people that join, get impatient, and ninja pull to wipe the group before leaving all over again. This has happened to me every. Single. Time.
2) The loot distribution needs tweaking, I agree. I don't believe that lucky rollers should be punished, but I do think that spec restrictions need to be considered a bit more, and (this is the big one, for me), that you should NOT be able to pick up multiples of what you already own. This week, a mage won the tier gloves with my tank's group, despite the fact that he was already wearing them, and then proceeded to try and bargain to trade/sell them. He was removed from the group, resulting in a 'nobody wins' scenario, but it should never be allowed to happen in the first place.
3) And an extension of my first point. Griefing. I've lost count of the ninja pullers that wipe the group, but I've also encountered people that mount up before the trash on Morchok, who then take off and start kiting as much trash as they can, round and round and round, inevitably resulting in #1 all over again. They cannot be kicked because they're in combat, they refuse to leave, and it can take a significant amount of time before they hopefully screw up and die and you can do something about it. Most of the time, everyone's already left by then, and the new people aren't terribly thrilled about zoning in to an immediate wipe by the gleeful griefer.
I find it sad, but not surprising that so many issues with the Raid Finder are issues with appalling player behaviour - putting 25 strangers in a group and expecting them to cooperate seems to be a rare thing in my experience. It only takes one person in a trolling mood to easily eat up an hour+ of your time with Raid Finder if you're one of the rare few that doesn't immediately jump ship, and I'm already completely burnt out on the experience, despite never even having the chance to complete a Fall of Deathwing run yet.
I thought the idea was ambitious from the start, and I had a feeling all along that we'd have just enough community brats to make something with great potential just be incredibly painful for everyone instead.
Jabadabadana Dec 15th 2011 11:19PM
You have had interesting experiences in RF.
I've never had a group end on account of a wipe, I've never seen someone ninja pull to wipe, and I've certainly never seen someone go careening off to pull as much trash as possible.
Whig Dec 16th 2011 12:26AM
Yeah, sounds like you've had terrible luck. I had experiences like that on the PTR, but in live I've had mostly solid groups. Never had a true griefer and only the occation puller. I've killed the full raid every lockout, and only had one group truly go south. Hang in there, your luck will change and you'll get a good group.
I love the LFR. I know I'm not really raiding but it's still damn fun. Wow is a game, I play it for fun. Adding a difficulty slider to the raiding experience is a long overdue improvement.
As far as the loot goes, I welcome improvements but I also keep in mind that this is isnt raiding. So I don't expect anything like raid rules for loot. We have a long way to go before MoP, we will all have our tier eventually.
gewalt Dec 16th 2011 12:46AM
your story isnt really credible. too far fetched.
J Dec 16th 2011 1:07AM
Why isn't it credible? I have no reason to lie, and I'm certainly not replying to people who've had positive experiences to tell them that they're liars. I'm glad that people are responding to say that their experiences have been vastly different - it's reassuring that my own experiences may indeed be nothing more than exceptionally bad luck.
I can only speak from what I've encountered and experienced, and I've just been forced to deal with some genuinely horrible people.
Nina Katarina Dec 16th 2011 8:18AM
I've noticed a vast difference in quality depending on time of day and day of the week. If I LFR on a non-Tuesday weekday afternoon or a Saturday or Sunday morning, it's horrible terrible no good awful. The griefers and kiddies are out in force. I have not yet had a bad experience on reset day, or at night or early in the morning. I figure then people are on their mains, and they're more focused on getting things done than on blowing out their own ego.
I think that the LFR would be improved if recount were completely disabled, and any dps who crowed about how much better their recount numbers are than the rest of you scrubs was automatically loot locked out of the next boss. It does make me awfully slow to find my taunting button when I see their name light up red...
Sinthar Dec 16th 2011 8:20AM
Yes that is a variant of the old 'grab some mobs and vanish near where that persons trying to mine' style of mining/herbing. Its happened to me before although not so bad, and not in an instance. I personally would report him for the behaviour - and state to GM's that that sort of behavoiur would taint all their efforts to get LFR up and going. Hopefully he would get a weeks ban or so at least.