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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsOfficers' Quarters: Tier transition trouble
by Scott Andrews 
Dec 19th 2011 at 1:00PM
For many guilds, the release of a new raiding tier isn't as cut and dry as simply moving on to the new bosses and leaving the previous tier behind. These days, there are a number of reasons to continue with older content: finishing legendary grinds, completing achievements, and downing unkilled bosses on either difficulty. This week, a guild leader feels conflicted about how to approach the raiding schedule with so much unfinished business in Firelands.
Hi Scott:
I'm the guild leader for a medium sized guild. The guild is about 9 months old at this point, and we've had our share of raid member turnaround. Through each generation though, we've gotten stronger. Now that the team is pretty solid and showing up on schedule weekly, a problem has reared its ugly head, and its name is Dragon Soul.
You see, because of the constant turnaround, we were stuck in tier 11 longer than we should have been, and are only now at the point that going 6/7 in Firelands can be done in a couple of hours. We still don't have a Rag kill under our belts. Compounded with that, our Legendary recipient is only in the second collection phase.
But with the new dungeons dropping 378's and Deathwing taunting us, some members of the raid group have voiced in interest in raiding Dragon Soul. One member (who got a Rag kill with another team a couple weeks ago) said he can't wait to kill Rag so we "never have to go to Firelands again." That really REALLY aggravated me, but I kept my cool in Guild Chat.
The plan that was set forth at the launch of 4.3 was to continue Firelands, adding in LFR Guild runs, and reevaluate our approach after the holidays, as we are all expecting attendance to start becoming sporadic here shortly. Personally, I want my guildie to get her legendary before we abandon Firelands, as that is what we committed to do.
I sincerely believe that it won't be long before we have our Rag kill, and from there we can start full clearing Firelands in one evening, using the other raid night to work on Dragon Soul progression. That being said, I have a strong suspicion that approach will lead to us once again having to recruit for an open spot or two. It's not like Dragon Soul wouldn't help me too. I'm a Rogue. The Fangs are MINE! But I'm willing to wait until Firelands is completed and simply being farmed before I worry about them.
So, what now? Do I abandon a promise to a guildie for the sake of progression? Do I put it to a democratic vote from the team? Do I force my will upon the raid team?
Oh, and if you're wondering why this issue is such a concern, it's because I did EXACTLY what your book told me not to: I'm a Raid Leading Guild Leader.
Sincerely,
Unsure.
Ha! Yep, it's not always a fun (double) position to be in!
Your guild is not alone in this dilemma. Others are facing the same quandary. My own guild has been raiding Firelands 10-man on off nights to finish up a third staff. It's also given us a chance to help more players earn the meta-achievement (such as myself, since my PC blew up the night we did most of the normal-mode achieves). However, it's often challenging to fill up that 10-man raid. People who were raiding Firelands nonstop since midsummer have had their fill of it, so finding volunteers can be a struggle.
You seem angry that one of your raiders expressed boredom with Firelands. I think that's more an indication of your own frustration with the situation. You're feeling a lot of pressure to move on, so the person who's being vocal about it is making you feel that pressure even more. Don't take it as an insult or as a criticism; that player simply wants to be done with that content, and it's perfectly natural for him to feel that way. I'm certain he's not the only one in your guild who does.
Your guild is not alone in this dilemma. Others are facing the same quandary. My own guild has been raiding Firelands 10-man on off nights to finish up a third staff. It's also given us a chance to help more players earn the meta-achievement (such as myself, since my PC blew up the night we did most of the normal-mode achieves). However, it's often challenging to fill up that 10-man raid. People who were raiding Firelands nonstop since midsummer have had their fill of it, so finding volunteers can be a struggle.
You seem angry that one of your raiders expressed boredom with Firelands. I think that's more an indication of your own frustration with the situation. You're feeling a lot of pressure to move on, so the person who's being vocal about it is making you feel that pressure even more. Don't take it as an insult or as a criticism; that player simply wants to be done with that content, and it's perfectly natural for him to feel that way. I'm certain he's not the only one in your guild who does.
Your three options
Let's examine the three options you mentioned, one by one.
Option 1 Give up on Firelands and begin Dragon Soul. That would probably make a lot of people happy at this point. It might even give your guild a nice morale boost heading into the holidays. The holidays can be a dangerous time for guilds. Players who were waffling about continuing to play WoW may, after a week or two away from the game, decide that now is a great time to quit. Seeing Dragon Soul before the break may convince them to stick around longer.
The downside of course is that your staff recipient will be very disappointed, as well as anyone who really wanted to clear Ragnaros. You always have the option to go back at some point. And honestly, it would help progression to have someone with the staff in your raid. But it's going to be very difficult to convince people to go back once you move on.
Option 2 Put it to a vote. Pure democracy is a beautiful thing, but with major guild decisions, it often creates more trouble than it's worth. A public vote will merely turn players against each other. There could be some heated arguing over the issue. Your staff recipient may also hold a grudge against everyone who voted to move on.
On the plus side, you won't be accountable for the choice, so you're off the hook -- in theory, at least. I'm sure if things go sour people will blame you for it anyway.
Option 3 Force people to stay in Firelands until Ragnaros is down. The outcome of this will all depend on how long it takes. If you go this route, you'll need to emphasize that the notorious lack of raid content between expansions will certainly mean that you'll all be completely bored with Dragon Soul before the Mists of Pandaria roll in. Thus, there is ultimately no point in rushing to the next tier.
You may find yourself losing raiders over it if it goes on too long, and that is a real risk. I think you'll have to gauge the public feeling on it from week to week.
You mention Raid Finder runs, and they are indeed a great way to get people into Dragon Soul who really want to see that content. The bosses aren't the same as normal mode, but at least people will get familiar with some of the mechanics. The slightly better gear will help, too.
But wait, there's more
Here are a few other options that might be preferable to the three above.
Option 4 Use raid lockout extensions to your advantage. It will slow down the staff assembly, but you might consider carrying over a lockout just for one week to spend as much time on Ragnaros as possible. The encounter has a lot going on, so it just takes practice. The upside to this is that if you get him down before the end of your week's raids, you'll have time to look at Dragon Soul. Then you can move forward with your plan to raid both.
If you find yourselves stuck on Ragnaros, you can dedicate the last hour or so of each week's raiding to a Dragon Soul boss. Each time you down a boss, extend the lockout to the next week so you can start working on a new one. The first half of Dragon Soul is arguably much easier than the early Firelands bosses were when that raid was released. It's not unreasonable to think that you might be able to get a new boss down every one to two weeks even with just an hour in the zone.
Option 5 Raid Dragon Soul on off nights. If people really want to see it, then they'll be willing (as long as they're able) to add a night of raiding to their schedule temporarily. This could assuage those who are extremely anxious. Also, the additional gear can only help you to clear Firelands faster (not to mention you can begin the daggers quest line).
Option 6 Dedicate one night to each, regardless of progress, until the staff is done. It's a compromise solution, and like all good compromises, it will leave everyone slightly unhappy, but no one ignored. You'll eventually have to kill Ragnaros to get the staff made, but that will come in time.
The problem I see with this is that people may show up for the Dragon Soul runs and ditch the Firelands runs. However, if you go on with Firelands-only raiding too much longer, you're probably going to experience a drop in attendance anyway. My suggestion to combat this is to give priority to people who showed up to Firelands when you're putting the Dragon Soul raid together. (That depends, of course, on having more raiders than slots.)
Well, as you can see, this situation has many different approaches. If I were in your shoes, I would choose option 6. That solution gives you the best chance at keeping your raiders interested without giving up on the staff and the Ragnaros kill.
/salute
Recently, Officers' Quarters has examined how strong new leadership can create a guild turnaround, the pitfalls of promising more than you can deliver, and lessons learned from Scott's own guild demise. Send your own guild-related questions and suggestions to scott@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 3)
ikutcher Dec 19th 2011 8:25PM
My 10 man group started farming for the legendary the first day Firelands hit. By the end of the tier we were 6/7H and only barely managed to make our first staff 2-3 weeks before 4.3.
If you started just 6 weeks ago and haven't yet killed Rag, I can roughly assume that you're at best on the second stage of the collection, that's a good 3-4 months of Firelands you'll need to do to get that first staff considering you aren't doing any hard modes. Speaking from experience, this is far too long to subject your group to when there's such delicious new content available to them with far greater rewards.
With my group, our second recipient is on the final stage of the quest and we've unfortunately had to put his quest on the back-burner while we churned through DS. Now that we're 8/8 normal DS we've gone back and organised alt runs for Firelands to go through the quest. The majority of our group is tired of Firelands so letting people bring their slightly undergeared alts has done much to rejuvenate their enthusiasm.
Brahmann Dec 19th 2011 11:43PM
As the GM of a 10 man guild, we too still have FL on our raid schedule purely to finish off our 2nd legendary. We only have one more week to go until we're done and out of FL and will only be raiding DS from that point onwards.
The biggest issue you're going to have with your guild is getting past the fifth boss in DS - Ultraxion. This is effectively a gear and skill check for all guilds. Most guilds who haven't been doing Heroic FL tend not to have the gear straight out of the gate and so need to gear up for a while before being able to down Ultraxion.
Option six where you split between DS and FL until you've completed your FL legendary is definitely the way to go. Most players are doing LFR full clears each week and combining LFR with normal modes of DS and FL is a good way of keeping most players happy with a bit of variety. That being said, if you're only on phase 2 of the FL legendary, you still have a good 3-4 months in there if you're not doing any heroic modes ...
Grimtar Dec 20th 2011 12:34AM
Progression is more important than anything, even for a casual guild.
If you want your choice of recruits, you need to be pushing as much current content as you can in your allotted time. Farming Firelands without touching a DS boss is simply the worst possible idea. When a new tier comes out, you need to concentrate on the new tier.
As far as Legendaries go, completing them becomes a task for off-nights.
At the most, you should spend 1 night in Firelands, with all other nights in DS. If you raid one night, then DS > FL.
As others have commented, the first four bosses of DS are not very difficult, although if you're struggling with Ragnaros, you may struggle a little with Yo, Zo and/or Hagara, depending on what exactly messes you up on the Rag encounter. But some 397 gear will definitely help your raid push down Rag either way.
DS absolutely needs to be your priority, as much as it sucks for your staff collector (just as it sucks for my 25-man guild's third staff collector).
Tj Dec 20th 2011 1:07AM
In regards to the staff, is it a 10 or 25m raid group?
If it is a 10m group, you'll likely have to be doing full clears of Firelands until the end of the expansion to finish the last phase. It takes for-stinking-ever in 10m. It takes something like 3 times as long to make it in 10's as it does in 25's. Honestly, if making the staff is the goal and you're a 10m group, the staff person is likely better off hitting a 25m Firelands pug (if your server does those) every week on their own time.
Chetti Dec 20th 2011 1:28AM
We had/have a similiar situation happening in the guild I'm in. We are a splinter off of another guild, the majority (9 of 10) of the raid team started a new guild. I took the 10th spot. I was server transferring to join a friend in the big guild, but the day I landed on the new server was the say the new guild started and taaadaaa i got taken along (kicking and screamin and omg i am gonna kill us ALL!! the whole way). The first raid I ever did was 5/6 of BWD. We stopped at Nef that night.. back in October. I still have no Nef kill, but in that time, we've started a second raid team that DID manage to kill Nef, so at least the guild has the achievement. The following week we started Firelands. We've got one person working on the legendary staff, our mage. She is on the part with the 1000 seething thingies. We're 6/7 normal mode, and those 6 can be done in one night.
The issue came up the week the patch dropped. Most of our group wanted to stay in Firelands because only 2 of us have a 4-set bonus.. and one is now the raid leader of team 2, so for the purpose of comparison, doesn't count. Some of us could still get our tier 12 upgrades, even if we just have them for a short time, having them going into DS would be helpful.
At first, our raid leader saved firelands on Rag since we spent one whole night on him and couldn't get him down. We didn't have our whole raid team, we were running with 3 fill-ins) and things were just not working. Tried again, saved on Rag again since even with our full 10 we couldn't get him down. After that attempt, he wasn't saved again. We spent our second raid night last week in Dragon Soul. We got 1 boss down, and 2 pretty decent attempts on 2 others to work on mechanics. Throughout the past couple weeks, with people in the guild both on the raid teams or not, hitting the raid finder, and discussion amongst raid members and officers and so on, it was decided (and I completely agree) that we would spend one night in firelands clearing our 6/7 to get the seethers for the legandary and the other night working on dragon soul. Everyone seems to be in agreement that this was a good idea. I'm a shadow priest, I was second in line for a legendary. I had started the first collection part of the quest (I think I got 6 of the embers, still in my bank), but once the patch dropped and the subject of how much time to spend in firelands came up, I knew it was time to drop it. I'm not really disappointed, I would have liked to have it, but its really not a big deal. I'm glad it was agreed upon to finish our Mage's legendary because she's put a lot of hard work and a lot of her own gold into it, and it would be really unfair to ask her to give it up.. especially since we have a rogue that will be working on the daggers. Having such a diverse group, and very little competition for gear/weapons is nice. I love my guildies.
Othor_NL Dec 20th 2011 5:16AM
Do both in one night: Kill first Boss in DS (shouldnt take you more then 20-30 minutes) then Switch to Rag for the rest of the night.
Have an alt ready at the fireland location for quick summoning (Have group will travel)
Bluriel Dec 20th 2011 7:15AM
How about moving FL to a 3rd night? For quest people/alts/people still wanting achievements?
You could even PUG 1-2 slots - at least on my server I can still find people to fill up my alt runs. (Granted, takes a bit longer then it used to, but definitely doable).
weepixie Dec 20th 2011 8:12AM
"He was aggravated because the person that said it had already downed Rag with a pug. So to that person, game was won, screw the others let's move on."
This. As someone who is both guild leader AND raid leader (for 3 very successful years now) and leads 2 raid teams, each raiding 2 nights/wk, I can assure you that we are very much aware of how tired some of our raiders get at having to accommodate the learning curve. We feel it too - that impatience. But we have to cheerlead, compromise, encourage, and coach. If one raider is so self-centered that he has to announce his impatience like a child does, instead of showing the maturity and tolerance of a true teammate, you bet your britches it's aggravating. It brings the entire mood and energy down, making more work for us as a leader.
To the OP, I would reiterate that the first 4 bosses are astoundingly easy. Both of my raid teams 1-shot Morchok without any prep (ie no one studied the fight), and one of the teams is rather like your raid, having worked for many weeks on Ragnaros before downing him just a few days before Dragon Soul came out. They are a positive group but they have a much steeper learning curve which makes progression slower. Ultraxion was a solid wall for that group, because the overall dps is lower. If any of your dps averages below 22k, Ultraxion isn't going down unless all the others are much higher. We 2-heal that fight, btw. In both raid groups.
But the first 4 bosses were very easy for them. Many of my raiders do the Raid Finder a couple of times a week, too, in an attempt to gear up on their own time. I don't personally approve of using the LFR to gear, but it has improved dps a tiny amount (though not raid skills or spatial awareness). I'd split your raid nights. The first four bosses shouldn't take much time and then you can still commit to the staff.
Good luck!