Drama Mamas: Loot lessons
by Robin Torres 
Dec 26th 2011 at 7:00PM
Loot drama rears its ugly head yet again this week.
Good morning Drama Mamas,
I was recently joined a guild run (not my guild) of Dragon Soul on my mage. I have never really had problems raiding on my alts. My main is in a semi hardcore raiding guild, and we were 8/8 in the first week of dragon soul. So on the off days I like to raid on my priest or mage. I really didn't think much of raiding with nine other people all from the same guild. It doesn't happen often, but guild runs typically go a lot smoother than complete PUGs.
When I joined the raid no clear loot rules were announced. I typically just wait till the first boss is killed to see how loot works. So we killed a boss and a piece of loot dropped that I could use (a wand), and the master looter in raid chat said main spec roll and linked the piece of loot. I ultimately rolled the highest; however, I got a bit suspicious how long it took for the master looter to award me the loot. The guild didn't say anything after they gave me the loot and I said thanks. I am pretty appreciative when I receive loot.
We downed a few more bosses and then another item dropped (a staff with hit rating) that I could have used for main spec. The master looter again asked for MS rolls and linked the piece of loot in raid chat. I again rolled the highest; however this time he gave the loot to his guild member the warlock who already had the second part of the legendary staff quest. I didn't understand what was going on and then they said that I could only win one piece of loot. I was pretty confused and upset. I offered to give up the other piece of loot for that one. Then in vent some members started called me a greedy bastard. I have never been a part of such a blatant scam. I immediately began to whisper the individual members, and they eventually all put me on ignore. There was not much that I could do. The group disbanded and most of them logged off the game.
I opened a ticket because I really thought that this was a blatant abuse of master looter privileges. I wrote a pretty detailed explanation and linked screen shots of the incident. My ticket eventually got answered 3 days later with a pre-written explanation about loot disputes and how they cannot help me.
I eventually looked up the warlock, who received the loot, and discovered that he gave it to the shadow priest in the raid. Am I in the wrong here? Is there any way for me to get some mediation? I understand that its only loot, but I would hate for this guild to do this to someone else in the future. I have talked with some other people from our server and they have told me that their guild leader has been known to do this in the past. I really want to get revenge, but I'm not sure how. And why does blizzard not take loot disputes seriously? or why do they always send me pre-written responses? Is there anything that I can do or that can be done?
Sincerely,
The 99%
Drama Mama Robin: First of all, /facepalm at your signature, The. Sorry to sound harsh, but discussions about virtual items in a virtual world are not really the same as discussions about the disparity of salaries in the United States. Still, let's move on to the topic at hand. Though things did not go well for you, there are at least some lessons you can learn from this incident.Lesson 1: Always find out and agree to the loot rules before starting any run that may result in the drop of any desirable loot. Here is the main crux of the problem: "I typically just wait till the first boss is killed to see how loot works." Always get the loot rules before fighting, particularly if you are a non-guildie participating in a guild run. They may consider you a second-class sub and give first rights to guildies. This is not the right thing to do, but it does happen all the time -- as it seems to have done here. If the "only one piece of loot" rule is an actual one and not just made up on the spot to justify bad behavior, then you would have known where you stood and acted accordingly.
Lesson 2: Don't take loot disputes to public chat. If you disagree with a loot decision -- whether the loot rules were stated at the beginning or not -- talk to the Master Looter via whispers. Disputing it in front of the other groupmates will just cause them to voice an opinion, as you saw. Once you have made your claim and get a response (screenshot it of course, to cover yourself), then again, do not take any grumbling (or boasting) to the rest of the group. This will only make you look bad, regardless of any injustices.
Lesson 3: Pleading your case to each (or any) individual involved is rather harassing. Sending whispers to the other people in your raid isn't going to get you what you want. In general, raids are not a democracy. The fact that they ignored you means that you lost advocates that day instead of gaining them.
Lesson 4: Blizzard will help if an exploit was used or some other blatant violation of its Terms of Service, but not on most loot disputes. If anything, Blizzard would be more likely to chastise you for your repeated whispers to the raid members. Yes, they should have been clear with the loot rules from the beginning (which you must also take
responsibility for -- see lesson 1). Yes, they probably made up the one piece of loot rule on the fly. But no, they didn't do anything so wrong that Blizzard would get involved at all.Again, I'm sorry this was such an unpleasant trip for you, but at least you can learn for the future. If all you get from this is lesson 1, then I think you'll avoid loot drama from now on.
Drama Mama Lisa: As it turns out, your wait-and-see method of researching loot methods worked 100% as intended. You waited to see. You saw. The end. Except then you then proceeded to make a nasty little scene and ruin the night for everyone because you didn't get your way -- on another guild's guild run, no less, where you should have expected legendary drops would be part of some process that was already in progress for the guild as a whole.
Robin's laid out all the right reasons here, but I can sum it up for you quite nicely with the words of my kids' kindergarten teacher: Unless you verify the loot procedures and either agree to proceed under those rules or opt out of the raid, you git what you git and you don't have a fit.
And if you try sometimes, you just might find ... you get what you need!
Dodge the drama and become that player everyone wants in their group with a little help and insight from the Drama Mamas. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at robin@wowinsider.com. Read Robin's section of this post on how to get your letter answered and please remember that we cannot answer privately.Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Jeff (Not that one ^ ) Dec 26th 2011 7:11PM
They don't even care if people abuse the LFR and "trade" items they don't need that they still roll need on so why would Blizzard care about a guild 10-man?
daimonie Dec 26th 2011 7:55PM
How COULD they possibly do anything against that? Yes, it ain't fair. Yes, it isn't honest; it isn't the best.
But if i roll on a legimate item for my rogue, and then trade it to my gf, why wouldn't that be possible? It's just as "Social" to give up the item to my girlfriend, as it is to give it up to any one else.
Even better; i have a tie with people. That probably means i'll continue playing the game; more win for blizzard.
In reality, you can't beat or work with the system either. There, you deal with it. Why not here as well? If you want fair loot, you go for a guildrun or make a PUG. If you want to experience the raid content, get some valor (To make up for loot) and have a chance at gear; join LFR. It's a chance. Take it - or not.
worob.aaron Dec 27th 2011 9:45AM
If you roll Need, it immediately becomes soulbound. You can't sell it.
Brixus Dec 27th 2011 10:09AM
It's only soul bound I you use the default "need before greed" loot rules. Typically in a pug or guild run the raid leader will distribute loot based on a highest /roll basis or some sort of dkp system. You can trade till your hearts content if that is the case to anyone who was in the raid the time the item dropped.
LynMars Dec 26th 2011 7:12PM
Yeah, the writer is the Drama-monger here, sorry. ALWAYS ask loot rules up front; either in /raid or in whisper to the ML or RL.
Most organized runs I am in only go for 1 piece of main spec loot a night; rolling for more than 1 main spec piece and expecting to get both when others can also use it does, in fact, make you look like a greedy jerk if you've won something and throw a fuss about not getting another piece.
In most cases, the only time you'll end up with more than 1 piece of gear from a run like that is if no one else can use it, they call off-spec rolls, transmog/RP rolls, and/or "someone take it or it's sharded". And then you are grateful for them being so generous with gear they could have made into enchant mats.
Frell, I got into a regular 25man run in Wrath by pugging in on a friend's guild run, winning Trauma, and then giving it up to the Healer Lead who really wanted it, since I was just a substitute, and hey, wasn't like I'd need it -that- badly for my 10man. They invited me back each week and handed Trauma to me the next time it dropped, even though I didn't have the highest roll that time. For me, it paid to err on the side of generosity, as I ended Wrath decked out in 25man Normal gear and saw up to Lich King phase 2 before scheduling issues struck, and it seriously helped out my 10man group.
Gendou Dec 26th 2011 8:02PM
This. So much this.
I've been on both sides of the coin. I've been the pug and I've invited pugs.
The greed and entitlement in the OP's post borders on the ridiculous.
I hope that he goes on his realm's pug blacklist.
GerardthePriest Dec 27th 2011 10:06AM
This. Our guild runs with "MS over OS, one piece of loot per night until everyone has won something" rules. I thought they were pretty standard in many guilds, I'm shocked this letter-writer has never encountered them before.
Harvoc Dec 26th 2011 7:17PM
I don't actually think that the "one piece of loot per person" is a made-up rule.
Scunosi Dec 26th 2011 7:28PM
Yeah, it's pretty typical for most groups that don't run a tighter setup like DKP or otherwise, even more so when dealing with PUGs.
The fact that it may have only really applied to the PUG though is kind of lame, but that's what you usually get when running with a different pack. My guild always tried to treat PUGs like temporary guildies, which meant same loot rules, but also same expectations. As long as a PUG is pulling their weight and knows how to follow orders there's no reason to distance yourselves so much. Who knows, that PUG from your run could end up being a top guildie some day, if you make the right impression.
Jeff (Not that one ^ ) Dec 26th 2011 7:29PM
Maybe not, but the raid leader should always announce loot rules at the start of the raid--especially if there are "outsiders" in the group who wouldn't know them already.
Chetti Dec 26th 2011 10:50PM
Thats what our raid leader does, if we need to grab someone from trade on a given night. He'll go over the general rules and loot rules. We put down a guild cauldron and a feast, each guildie makes a 50g deposit to the guild bank (which is dropped also through mobile banking) to cover the cost of mats for both the flasks and feasts. The 25 second potions are free to anyone that needs them. All of this is stated at the front door, while buffing and again after trash in front of a boss is cleared before the boss fight. While fresh buffs/cauldrons/feast are being placed, a run-down of EPGP is given and it is clearly stated that the person along for the run should also roll on anything that is an upgrade for them. We have been pretty lucky with our pugs, like someone else said, your pug one night can be a future guildie. We've gotten 2 or 3 who joined the guild shortly after running once with us. One of them happens to be our team 2 tank healer, another later addition became a healer in our main team. You never know who you're pugging with. Its best to be considerate to everyone. :)
Nonny Dec 27th 2011 7:49AM
Yeah, the 1 piece per person (unless nobody else can use it) rule is standard procedure for pretty much any free roll raid I've been on.
Pyromelter Dec 26th 2011 7:26PM
If you don't know the loot rules, you should always ask.
Exception: If you don't care about loot at all, you don't have to ask. Like, my warrior is something like my 6th alt. I'll do late-patch raiding on him for lulz, and I have absolutely no desire for loot on him at all, it's just more to use two big sticks to hit some bosses.
I would like to address the questions he asked:
"And why does blizzard not take loot disputes seriously? or why do they always send me pre-written responses? Is there anything that I can do or that can be done?"
Blizzard does indeed take loot disputes seriously. However, the only way they can do anything about it is if the loot rules are explicitly stated in the raid chat. If a master looter sets the rules, and then breaks them, you have recourse. If there are never any rules written in the in-game chat, then the master looter can quite literally ninja every piece of loot, vendor it or disenchant it, blow a /kiss at you, and ninja log off - and there is nothing you can do about it.
It's somewhere in the TOU, I can't be bothered to find it at the moment. But I know about it because I used to run 25-man GDKP's, and we would always put a macro in raid chat explicitly spelling out the loot rules, the bidding system, what would happen with loot that no one bid on, BOE's, etc.
---
On a more opinionated note, while the raid leader of that raid might have that reputation of being shady, the letter writer was being a bit greedy. A general rule of thumb for straight /roll type loot in a 10-man is one main spec win per run, unless everyone has already gotten a main spec item. The fact the lock traded it to the spriest is immaterial, unless the priest had already won something in the raid... that is really the only gripe you would have, and that is a bit shady.
But I would say lesson learned, make sure you know the loot rules, and IMO it's much healthier when you have an attitude of "I gear myself up to raid" as opposed to "I raid to gear myself up."
Mark Dec 26th 2011 7:45PM
I think Drama Mama Lisa may have misunderstood part of the letter, though it really doesn't change the answer. The letter writer wasn't rolling on an item for the legendary questline, the staff that dropped was given to a player who was already wielding the second staff from the questline, and wouldn't reasonably consider another weapon in the Firelands an upgrade. That's why the staff ended up in the hands of a third player.
Pyromelter Dec 26th 2011 7:54PM
They were raiding Dragon Soul, not Firelands.
goldeneye Jan 3rd 2012 12:37PM
Mark's post seems correct. It does seem like Lisa thinks there was a legendary being rolled for. Even though the OP is talking about Dragon Soul.
And yes, that does indeed not change the answer the Drama Mama's have provided ..
Gendou Dec 26th 2011 7:57PM
The 'One Piece of Loot Per Run' rule is extremely common among guilds that roll on gear rather than using DKP or another loot system. Exceptions are made if no-one wanted a particular piece ("I'd rather it go to someone's offset than be sharded,") but for the most part, it's not an uncommon rule.
When we used to bring in pugs for our guild raids, I had a macro I would post that had the loot rules. Again, the rules were typical of guilds that roll on gear (MS before OS; 1 piece of loot per run; crafting items go to the hosting guild's bank), but since I didn't want any confusion, I would post the macro.
Even so, we never had a pickup player who was so greedy as to want to keep rolling on gear even after winning a piece. That's just abusing the courtesy of the hosting guild. Hell, most pugs who joined us had to be urged to roll on gear even when it was an upgrade for them.
If anyone as obviously greedy as the OP had joined one of our raids, he would have gone on my blacklist.
And if he'd tried to raise a public ruckus with our members about our loot rules, damned straight he'd go on ignore.
Richardboone Dec 26th 2011 11:49PM
Our guild loot are similar - One M/S item per run. Unless some one else can not use it. One time we had only one clothie and that was all that dropped that night. So he was VERY happy.
Sunhead Dec 26th 2011 8:23PM
OP,
The guild in question is either dodgy or inexperienced. If they are raiding multiple bosses in DS I would say they are not inexperienced. They should have told you the loot rules when you joined, but you should have asked. Once you had loot you should have been told the loot rules, but they were either too pussy to tell you or they were just gonna lie to you.
As for Blizzard and Master Looter... if you join a group where Master Looter is set then you accept the decisions of the Master Looter. If there is no discussion of loot rules in chat, ie where Blizzard can see them, then there are no rules. Blizzard is not your Mom or your Kindergarten Teacher and DOES NOT CARE if something is FAIR.
IMO, the one loot per run thing is polite but by no means normal. I see no reason why you should not roll MS on the staff and put the wand up for adoption when you win, unless you have chanted/gemmed/soulbound it already.
Now for the real Drama...
Princess, your inexperience and confusion caused the drama. Whispering the raid members and whining about it not being fair just makes you look like a greedy noob. And honestly as Lisa pointed out, calling yourself the 99% probably illustrates your noobness more then anything else. You made a bad decision to not ask about loot rules, then a worse one to not just bail when you think they lied to you. Instead you annoyed everyone else, bummed their raid night and made yourself look like a noob. Honestly, coming here and whining about it without doing any research on the topic also makes you look like a noob. Loot drama is common and often discussed and all of the topics you have raised have been discussed here before.
The guild did the wrong thing, so did you. Neither of you is right, but you are by far more annoying and selfish.
Sunhead Dec 26th 2011 8:24PM
it was Robin not Lisa calling you on your sig... damn edit button and slow coffee maker.