Officers' Quarters: Merry Kickmas!
Now that we've gotten all this peace on Earth, goodwill toward men nonsense out of the way, we can get back to business. Today, that business is kicking players out of your guild. It's a drastic step and never one that should be carried out lightly. In this week's email, a new guild leader wants to know what actions are worthy of a gkick.
Hi Scott:
When Starwars: The Old Republic launches I will be jumping in with both feet, and plan on forming a guild within a week.
I currently have a couple friends on board, a good name that is not taken, and most of a guild charter written up. Officers' Quarters has been an invaluable assent over the past weeks in pulling everything together, but a sticking point is hammering out the fine details of the Unacceptable Behavior section. What actions do you think warrant a guild kick, supposing the full story is known?
Thank you,
Prepared for Everything
Hi, PFE. In the spirit of the season, I'll forgive you for asking a question about your Old Republic guild on our WoW blog. It's nice to hear that guild leaders in other MMOs are finding useful information from the OQ.
Now, regarding your email, that is a very difficult to answer! In a way, I'm going to cop out of answering it, because I think it's practically impossible to cover every situation that might warrant a gkick. Also, there are some compelling reasons not to be too specific.
Some rules need open ends
If you get too specific, you just paint yourself into a corner. Some rules work best when they are open-ended or left up to the guild leader's discretion. Once you put in writing, definitively, "If you do X, you will get kicked," then there's really no room for any other response. Even if you feel that the person doesn't deserve the kick, you have to follow through or else your rules mean nothing.
You could of course change the rule at that point and acknowledge that it is a bad rule. In that case, however, you undermine your members' trust in those rules and in the guild's leadership.
WoW court
You've already alluded to the other problem -- "supposing the full story is known." The truth may be out there, but finding it can be impossible. In my experience, situations where every aspect is 100% confirmed by a reliable and trustworthy person are few and far between.
Much more frequently, you get various conflicting versions of events from which you have to piece together what really happened. There's a reason why most justice systems rely on judges, lawyers, juries, witnesses, evidence, expert testimony, and all the rest. Determining guilt is a highly complex matter. For better or worse, WoW has no such system. In a case where guilt is uncertain, it's tough to justify a gkick.
Repeat offenders
Most of the people I have ever had to gkick were not people who perpetrated some unthinkable heinous act. They were just repeatedly doing minor things that built up into major issues over time. For example, I had a player who lied to me on several occasions. I suspected he was doing it, and the second time I caught him it was time for him to go.
Another player was just being really weird in guild chat and making people uncomfortable. After a couple of warnings had no effect, he was asked to leave.
How do you make these situations into a specific rule? I suppose you could, but what would be the point? Obviously if someone is outright lying to an officer over and over again, they shouldn't be in the guild.
Second chances
Except in rare cases, I like to give people second chances. Tell them that the next time they do the same thing, they will be kicked. That way, they can never say they weren't warned.
They either learn from the mistake and become a solid guild member, or they don't and give you a clear-cut opportunity to kick them. Either outcome makes your guild better, but you've retained the flexibility to make the right decision.
Kicks should never be done in haste or in anger. Allowing yourself that flexibility gives you time to think things over and make the right call. By strictly regulating all behavior, you don't give yourself that option.
Here's to a happy and kick-free New Year!
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)







Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Agony Dec 26th 2011 1:48PM
..................I'm sorry, what?
I was looking at the...entertainment.
Noyou Dec 26th 2011 1:48PM
Have rules posted on the info page and/or the first bank tab. Of course the majority of the people won't read them. You could have part of being promoted is the initiate in question telling you the rules. Keep them simple. Such as:
1. have fun
2. learn/teach
3. no begging (all will be provided in time)
4. respect all
In my little social guild I act swiftly and justly. I empower my officers to act as I would if they see someone being an ass or disruptive. I'll usually give one warning and one only. I would rather kick 10 people out for a marginal reason than let 100 people be subject to their BS. It seems to work well. We went from lvl 1 39 accounts when cata hit to lvl 25 150+ accounts. Most of the annoying players come from people adding them from trade/general chat. Take that for what it's worth.
bethontheharbor Dec 26th 2011 1:59PM
Hmm guess next time I need a WoW question answered I should go ask on the DC online forums, as that seems to be the logic of the poster.
Nick Dec 26th 2011 2:46PM
Guild advice on guild column.
Also generic guild advice fits all mmos.
hp_hunter Dec 26th 2011 2:12PM
how dare u redirect me to that youtube link Scott! My ears were almost recovered from that! :(
Sharky-Sharky Dec 26th 2011 2:52PM
Woh woh! How about an "NSFW" warning for that header image?! Oh wait.. "Merry Kickmas" ha... I get it. Never mind that. Clever point awarded, sir!
apharrington Dec 26th 2011 3:36PM
Camel-toe on parade.
LynMars Dec 26th 2011 4:05PM
This reminds me that I need to send logs to my GM; we kicked someone when he wasn't on (yay work + holidays making some officers scarce!).
We're a RP guild, but we have IC and OOC info posted and broken down fairly effectively on our website. We note our expectations, and have people play with us for a bit before even admitting them to our trial rank. Refusing to work with the officers trying to help smooth the transition into a new guild environment, hostility and spreading misinformation in OOC, and lying/story changing (sometimes in the same conversation!) to try to earn sympathy points is not a good way to keep working with a new group, when everything one is doing is already upsetting and confusing established players. I don't think this person even glanced at our info, which is really important to the RP of the guild--and establishes that we are not a progress group (we ally with a sister guild for our progression-ready folks).
There wasn't a hard and fast rule this person was breaking, and I brought up the low-level OOC rank at one point. When advice was ignored and people continued to be bothered, my roommate played 'bad cop' to my 'good cop' (in this guild we're both officers, and it's handy at times) and gave the boot for not working with the guild environment when I finally became too exasperated to calmly deal with it.
The regular guildies said they felt the public parts had been handled as well as could be. The GM later did say he expected the person to not work out, but not to have to be removed like that--they simply refused to leave, or change their behavior. Something had to give.
VSUReaper Dec 26th 2011 4:06PM
When I used to lead, I used the good old rule of "if it won't make it on TV before the 11pm news, it doesn't belong in the chat channels". Stuff like rape, sex concerning minors, and racism wouldn't float in my guild. I kept it open ended, but made sure I wasn't being vague.
If an offense occurred, then they got time out In a channel where they couldn't talk in gchat for at least 24 hours, and in the officer note we would put the date and time of the offense. Every 6 months, we cleared the notes, got 2 offenses in less than 6 months then you were asked to leave or got booted, depending on the situation.
I had one bad situation in Wrath where 4 people decided to taunt a victim about being raped after she asked them to stop talking about the subject. They got demoted, they changed to alts, and continued to harass her.
I promptly gave them thier choice, and ended up removing them, thier alts, and anyone else that felt that I needed to lighten up b/c it was all "in good fun - none of this stuff is real" or "she prolly deserved it".
Don't budge an inch on stuff like that or you will end up being a troll guild.
Hellhornet Dec 26th 2011 5:17PM
Don't use "You will be kicked if...". Go with "Disciplinary action up to and including discharge". Gives you a little discretion room on a case by case basis.
Muse Dec 26th 2011 5:32PM
That too, but I get a little bit leery about rules that state something may be determined at the GM/Officer's discretion - that requires that the GM/Officers have good personal judgement and a lot of common sense. Not to mention not be having a bad day.
LynMars Dec 26th 2011 6:50PM
@Muse: Really, it's all officer discretion, in the end, even with more defined instances. Open ended rules leave room for leeway for strange circumstances, and while abuse is a possibility, that type of person shouldn't be an officer to begin with.
Also, many good officer corps won't have anyone making such a decision alone except in extreme cases. Any time I've seen someone kicked, it's generally been after multiple occurrences, lots of discussion, and more than one officer saying "we should probably consider kicking" as no one does want to be accused of favoritism or a bad day making them trigger happy.
Gimmlette Dec 26th 2011 7:27PM
We have some specifics in our Code of Conduct. Ninja-looting is prohibited as are things that would get you disciplinary action from Blizzard. Our code starts with, "We do not tolerate malicious, hurtful behavior or speech in guild chat, party chat, WOW chat or on Mumble. This is grounds for dismissal." Now, what defines the behavior or speech is open to interpretation but I insist that people treat each other with respect. My feeling is, it it's disrespectful, don't do it. If I catch you doing or saying it, you're outta here. The type of people who are in my guild understand what is and isn't acceptable. We've had, over 4 years, only 4 incidents where someone merited a gkick because of their behavior or speech.
The guild is going to take on how you view the game. If you don't want certain behaviors, say, salty language, you should say, "Language is PG13." Does the person who lets loose a string of obscenities merit a gkick if this is their first offense? Only you can decide that.
I agree that spelling things out down to the nth degree is a bad idea. Remember what Princess Leia said, "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." You'll be forever amending what is and isn't acceptable. Plus, I can guarantee you'll find yourself on the wrong side of a violation once.
It's great that you're doing the work now to form a charter before you get up and running. I think the longer lasting guilds are the ones who are willing to do this kind of work, to explain who they are. I hope you get a lot of members.
Toy Dec 27th 2011 12:06AM
I think at the very least, you can spell out:
1- the process. Can any officer kick any other member ? only non-offs ? what happens when an officer is at fault ? Is the decision indivual or collegial ? Real good drama always involves Offs or the GM, so that must be planned for.
2- Give examples of problem behaviours. Rudeness, greediness, damaging the guild's rep, lack of skill/results.
3- OTOH, give examples of what is NOT a problem: vacations, punctual IRL issues... or even what is good: govong stuff, leading raids, advising newcomers, being active n the forums...
4- give examples of punishments, a kick really should be an extreme measure, and if it's the only punishment, minor infractions will go unpunished. Sitting out, No loot, Demotion...