The Raid Finder, the Dungeon Finder, point caps and you
by Matthew Rossi 
Dec 30th 2011 at 10:00PM
My problem is, I like my main. I'd play him more if there was anything to do. As it is, I tend to cap out on justice points rather than run on one of my alts, and even then, they usually cap on valors as well. (At least two of them do.) I even sometimes cap on honor, and with the new conquest point gains for Random BGs, I could cap on conquest if I really set my mind to it. And while I understand why we have both weekly and total caps on points, it often feels like I'm being penalized for liking the game and wanting to play it.
Now, is the solution to jack up the amount of points we can gain in a week? Potentially not. The weekly cap exists to keep people from just running heroics until their eyes bleed, blowing all those points on gear immediately, and then complaining that there's no candy left (like a certain someone writing this post used to do with his Halloween candy). I get that. But it has me contemplating other alterations to the point system.
Doffing the cap to flexibility
For starters, there's really no benefit to the total JP cap. All it does is force you to spend JPs when you're near it. That's fine -- but aside from either converting them to honor or just plain blowing them on gear or trade goods, what purpose does it serve? I'd say remove it. Same for the total honor cap, especially when the items most people want from honor (weapons) cost nearly as much as the total cap and have a seasonal honor cost already. These total caps don't work as a brake. They don't prevent anyone from grinding for as much as they can get. They just force mindless busy work and napkin math.
Secondly, valor points capping at 1,000 a week still seems excessively low when the only item that could possibly be purchased in a week is the relic slot item or throwing weapon. Frankly, perhaps the recourse here isn't to raise that cap but to drop some prices. BoE items I can understand costing 1,650, but capes, rings and necks should be accessible with a week's efforts. Making people wait two weeks between valor purchases means that the stated goal of valor points as a consolation prize isn't working. Who feels consoled by two weeks of grinding? I don't send people a Sorry about the Xlyens card with two weeks of stamp collecting enclosed.
Finally, we could lower how many valors we get for a random heroic. I'm not saying slash it to the bone, but 150 points ends up in that strange situation where you're running a heroic for the last 50 points. If they rewarded 100 per run, you'd have to run one more heroic a week to cap, but that one more heroic would reward full points and not feel like a weird appendix to your other runs that week.
Of course, you may have other ideas, and they may be better. So hit me with them. Are you perfectly satisfied with the current point systems? Would you make changes, and if so, what would they be?
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Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
votlemnouk Dec 30th 2011 10:27PM
The "run heroics until your eyes bleed" problem could be removed with some sort of diminishing results mechanic: the more often you run, the less and less you earn until you take a "rest."
In my eyes, hard caps are just another pointless fun-barrier Blizzard loves to implement for no good reason. Take these barriers away whenever possible, I say... and whenever they are really necessary, at least make them "invisible".
rapsam2003 Dec 31st 2011 2:55AM
They put up the barriers so that people don't just get all their gear instantly. After all, if I get everything I want within the first week of a new patch, why should I continue to play? I'll come back next patch and do the same, if I really want to. The caps are, plain and simple, ways to increase playability. And I support that idea.
Snuzzle Jan 1st 2012 1:45AM
I agree. In Wrath, the only badge cap was "you did all the heroics today and hae to wait for them to reset before you can get any more." Of course, you also got a much smaller percentage of an item per heroic dungeon than you do now, so it all balanced out. The "caps" were so huge that no one felt compelled to reach them. There also wasn't a "tracking bar" showing you your progress towards the cap-- while that's a nice feature, it sort of seems to encourage capping. It begs players to fill that empty bar.
If course, in Wrath your badges weren't automatically down-converted every time a new tier dropped either. It seems this obsession with "capping" only started in Cata. In TBC and Wrath no one ever tried to cap. There has to be a way to get back to that. Feeling pessure to cap isn't fun, and setting the "cap" bar too low makes it feel punitive if you play your char past the cap.
Tish Jan 3rd 2012 2:07PM
Snuzzle,
Maybe it is just cause I'm more casual, but this is actually the first patch this expansion that I have really felt like I had to cap. And that is more because of the HUGE amounts of gear I can get with those Valor points. In the past few patches the amount of gear I could get just wasn't all that much so I figured I would get them when I could, and just play without worrying about capping, but with 11 items to get (taking me 19 weeks - almost 5 months - If I cap each week) and that is just my main spec, I have a lot more motivation to make sure I cap each week.
And yes I agree that the 150 dungeon but only 1000/week is kinda wonky on that last dungeon of the week. Why not just make it 1050/week? 50 more points wouldn't really get you the gear all that much faster but it would make you feel less like you were wasting time on that last dungeon.
Kondin Dec 30th 2011 10:36PM
No. No. Nonononono.
For the love of god don't make me heal more pugs. I like to heal, don't get me wrong, but I like to heal my raid team. People I know will not make me carry them through fire. Valor isn't a consolation prize. Its the price of admission for getting in the raid for without making your raid leader think your not doing your part to help the raid.
Valor cap isn't there to penalize you, its their to NOT penalize you. If you could get everything from valor from grinding heroics, raid leaders would expect you to do so.
Instead, give valor for dailies. I'm sure some complaining would be had, but 10 valor a daily would not be unreasonably high, and its not like we haven't gotten epics from daily grinding before. And really, are 15 dailies any less than a time investment than heroic?
Arrohon Dec 30th 2011 10:52PM
Valor giving heroics are said to be a plan for Panda Land.
Valor and the entire badge system was meant to be a consolation prize, but Blizzard has blurred the line. Badges were created to fill those spots that RNG was killing you with. Everyone going into Firelands with ZA/ZG shoulders is what badges were meant to prevent. Now, badge gear (valor points) is as good and sometimes BiS as the current normal raid tier. Heroic versions of badge gear never would've existed if they had stuck to the original plan because your BiS pieces would all be raid drops. Has raiding suffered because of this? No one can truly say.
Matthew Rossi Dec 30th 2011 11:30PM
So if you don't want to heal for PuG's, don't.
I DO want to run on my main. I can't. Why does the game prevent me from doing what I want, in the name of preventing you from doing what you don't want? Shouldn't you be able to not do what you don't want to do?
Kondin Dec 31st 2011 12:15AM
Matthew, I'm sorry to say, but what you are saying is technically not true. You can keep running dungeons as much as you want, blizz isn't stopping you. You just won't get valor. You do get JP, which, yeah, you have to turn into something like herbs or ore or what have you to stay under cap, so its not even true to say you get nothing from doing more runs.
You have a point with JP being in a weird spot near the end of the expansion. I'm sure you've seen blizz comment however, that they have to be fairly careful on how they implement things that seem optional, but in practice seem mandatory. Making it possible to get everything you need from valor quickly would make it not mandatory from a gameplay standpoint to do so, but most raid leaders (and even players) would see it that way.
Kondin Dec 31st 2011 12:22AM
Wow that last sentence came out as absolute nonsense. lrn2proofread you silly goofball.
What I meant to say was that even if it wasn't actually mandatory, raid leaders and players would treat it as though it was.
Pyromelter Dec 31st 2011 5:31AM
Kondin is right matt. Although I think vp gear is too expensive, there is nothing stopping you from just killing bosses for the hell of it.
andrews Dec 31st 2011 5:35AM
So we have to prevent people from harming themselves? Give me a break. I am an adult. Treat me like one. If I don't want to raid at all, don't take away the part I like to do.
DarkWalker Dec 31st 2011 8:18AM
@andrews:
YOU might be a responsible adult, but plenty of players are impulsive teenagers (or impulsive adults, those exist too) that would play to the point of almost killing themselves (or effectively doing so, as has already happened) if the rewards were there.
Given that Blizzard has no way to differentiate between the responsible and irresponsible players, they determine how much they expect players to play weekly, and remove the rewards from exceeding that cap, so as to remove the main drive those irresponsible players would have for exceeding reasonable limits.
While I don't really agree with the way Blizzard implements those controls, the idea is a sound one, and perhaps even needed to avoid the risk of governments trying to regulate the game (again, as at least China has already done; AFAIK, they implemented a government-dictated limit on how much a person can play MMOs in a given week).
Dominic Dec 31st 2011 10:06AM
Matthew, the fact that you no longer get Valor points for running them does NOT mean you are prevented from running them, but if they increase the cap or give less points, then most raid leaders will REQUIRE their raiders to cap every week. That is, I believe, what Kondin is getting at. I fully agree with Kondin, too. It needs to stay where it's at.
I previously healed on a hardcore HM 25 man team and got burnt out because all I felt like I ever got to do was raid or prepare to raid. Now I play a mage that I cap Conquest every week, then, if I have time, I go back to try to cap Valor. Sometimes I don't have time to cap Valor, but if I was still raiding, that wouldn't be an option and I'd have to forego capping Conquest which is what I really care about right now. I like how Blizz has it set right now.
rodmin Dec 31st 2011 12:20PM
To me, healing on PuGs is a kind of challenge. Its the ultimate test to see until how much can you bend the situation until you "break" (or the raid wipes, whatever comes first).
Sometimes, good ppl come. Sometimes, the group is smooth and you have a good time. Other times, the raid is a complete insanity and the challenge becomes a comedy movie in which you wish you had popcorn by your side (And Spine of Deathwing, i love your comic potencial SO MUCH!).
To me, the 1k valor is fine. Note that although i could have gotten a helm in 3 weeks, i instead saved a bit and got a tier one from my raid group run. Players may just get too hasty in their desire for upgrades. And if waiting for the valor cap is a drag, there are other challengs you can do with your main that involves instances. For example, 3 manning VP or Stonecore for the mounts (or, if you really want a challenge, solo them yourself!)
The sky's the limit, friend. You're just limiting yourself.
andrews Dec 31st 2011 6:49PM
Darkwalker,
No wonder so many favor an overpowering nanny state. After all, lots of people can't control themselves so others must do it for them. That argument could be used in just about any area and be just as silly. The fact that people won't control themselves doesn't justify outside control on everyone.
razion Dec 30th 2011 10:41PM
If I were doing caps, I'd do it more like this:
Here's a hypothetical situation. Let's say a new raid tier comes out (5.2 or something). And we're, what, 2 weeks into the patch. During week one, everyone can get 1k valor. And that's it, no more. It's just as it is normal. Except it changes in the following week.
In week two, people who grinded last week now have 2k valor, after getting another 1k valor for this week. But what about people who weren't around last week? They can't max out their points. In the new system, the person who missed week 1 of valor grinding would be able to grind for 2k valor for week 2. And so and and so forth.
If you miss a week, you're behind on point-gear progression. This can be a really big disadvantage when you're puhsing new content and every little bit helps (particularly if you're trying to get applied and accepted into a raiding guild).
This would also make gearing alts easier--think about it. If you could have all your alts comparatively similarly geared with just a bit of grinding, wouldn't this solve a lot of problems? I really think the cap should be more of an "overall valor cap" as opposed to "just what you can earn in a week cap". So it would be like a "Valor TIER cap" or a "Season Cap" respectively, for PvP.
That's how I'd improve the system. My two cents.
Ailuvan Dec 30th 2011 11:24PM
Then keep the ratio the same, and make it a 4-week cap...as in, you have a rolling 1k/week, with a 4k cap.
Then, if you miss one week, you can "catch up". Or, you can grubs this week til your eyes bleed, and be done for the month.
Wasn't there a mechanic like this at some point for something? maybe a rolling daily/total weekly cap?
DarkWalker Dec 31st 2011 8:36AM
I would do something similar to every single day- or week-long cooldown, refresh, etc; add some flexibility so players can use them a bit early or late and not be penalized for it.
A few ways this could be done:
- For VP, track the unearned VP when the caps refresh, and let players earn those points in the following week. It's the way TF2 deals with play time when awarding players their weekly gifts.
- As a variation of the above, change the VP cap to be a daily one, but track the unearned points from at least a week, perhaps more; as above, let players earn normally the still tracked unearned points.
- For any day-long or longer cooldown, treat players as if the cooldown was done after most of it has passed - say, 20 hours out of 24, or 6 days out of a week - but, if there is still part of the cooldown remaining when the player uses it again, add the remains to the new cooldown. This could work for cap refreshes too by treating reaching the cap as using the cooldown.
Arrohon Dec 30th 2011 10:43PM
I think the JP/honor caps are for patch transitions. Especially for pvp. Have fun pvping at lvl 90 in the first month of MoP against people that ground up enough honor during Cata to buy a full set of pvp gear (and would've ground enough for weapons except for the seasonal honor requirement). They could turn all honor and JP above 4,000 to gold at patch/expansion transitions, then let you accumulate as much as you wish until the next tier of content. Except, that's probably more work than they wish to do for something that works well enough as it is. It'd be so close to how it already is that the extra work would be fairly pointless. There are things that are a higher priority. It could be done, but it's unlikely to happen too soon if at all.
ForgottenAtDawn Dec 30th 2011 10:55PM
I agree with you, with a few added tidbits:
They should keep the caps at 4k from lvl 10 (the start of BGs) to just before the current level cap (currently 84). This would stop people from getting full sets of gear right when they hit cap.
Also, setting the number to infinite would tax blizzards systems. maybe setting the cap to 8-12k would work better, then during patch have the points still convert down to the 4k