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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBreakfast Topic: Do you mind being the unsung hero?
by Fox Van Allen 
Jan 5th 2012 at 8:00AM
Of course, we're never the real hero. The real hero of the fight against Deathwing was Thrall. Anveena vanquished Kil'jaeden. It was Tirion Fordring who saved the world -- and you -- from complete destruction at the hands of the Lich King. It's like we're the Secret Service agent who saved Ronald Reagan from being assassinated. But if we were also the agent who saved Gerry Ford twice -- and then traveled back in time to save JFK and Lincoln, too. And then found Saddam Hussein and killed Hitler. And also maybe you caused the Big Bang too. It's an inevitable fact of MMORPGs. You're always there, but you never get the credit.
Does that bother you at all? Do you wish that it was your character with the statue along the entrance to Stormwind? Or are you OK with your character's role, serving as the bridesmaid in every wedding to ever occur throughout history?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Rottingrat Jan 5th 2012 9:11AM
I Think it would be awesome, if there would be statue of the raid that did the realm first heroic kill off the final boss, like next to the jaw of Deathwing or something like that, with something along the lines of "For the great heroes who helped Thrall." Maybe even throw a couple of NPC's to wonder the great heroes, and throw a few praises of how brave and powerful they are, and some kids saying that they want to be just like them.
WoWie Zowie Jan 5th 2012 9:13AM
thank you heroes, we couldn't have done it without you! but, well.. we would have done it without you just as well too..
if only wow's story arc was phased
bscaggs06 Jan 5th 2012 9:16AM
I always find it funny that after doing such big and epic fights, we are still sent on quests to pick up scrap parts laying around in the yard.
andrew Jan 5th 2012 9:21AM
Saurfang remembers you if you've turned in the dragon heads. If Saurfang sung about it about it the whole world would know.
Heleos Jan 5th 2012 9:25AM
Wow good point Edymnion. Didnt even think about that...
Plaguewood Jan 5th 2012 9:27AM
I really hate to bring it up, but this is where The Old Republic really shines. In WoW, when you complete a certain task or achievement for a title, you get a little blurb in chat that says, " has been granted the title, "the Undying." It's nice, don't get me wrong, but that's it. However, in TOR, when you complete a section of the class questline, cutscenes and voiced dialogue really make a big deal about what you've done and how much you mean to the Republic/Sith. Making your first lightsaber, being promoted from Padawaan to Jedi by the Jedi Council (and later, "Master") all really make the player feel special. Yeah, I know it's kinda gimmicky, but it works, and works well.
And no, this isn't meant to be a "WoW vs TOR" response, so try to resist flaming me too badly (I have both accounts active atm and will play both, for awhile at least), but just a suggestion that maybe WoW could learn some things from other games.
evoxpisces Jan 5th 2012 9:44AM
I have not played TOR and I most likely won't (partially due to having a low end computer system) but that does actually sound cool. It really doesn't bother me that I am an "unsung hero" in WoW and in some cases I prefer it that way, but the part where you go from Padawan to Jedi to Master in TOR sounds cool and significant. And also when you make your first lightsaber. It's the little things that make games shine sometimes, and I agree with you in thinking WoW could benefit from little things such as these. Many times my character does feel like "just another character" and that there is almost nothing that sets him apart from the crowd. Good observation though.
Tyler Caraway Jan 5th 2012 9:48AM
I rather detest the way in which SWTOR over-inflates your character's worth. Since I know the stories are still a big deal to people, I won't go into those details, but I will say that I find many of the things which transpire for nearly all of classes just don't sit well with me in terms of reality. And, yes, I know, talking about reality in referencing a Sci-Fi video game, but it does make sense.
I feel that the Jedi Knight story in particular is utter bollocks, although it isn't the only one. For Sith Inquisitor, for example, the very first thing you are sent to do is retrieve a holocron from a sealed tomb that no one has been able to gain access to for 1,000 years! Sounds epic! You fight off mobs that any decent Sith could swat aside and then open the "impossible" lock by hitting it with lightning. Your going to tell me that in 1,000 years of people trying to open this lock, not a single person got frustrated and zapped it? But, oh, it just springs to mind to this one upstart recruit! Please.
Not to mention that all of your accomplishments are rated at nothing outside of your personal story zones. Yeah, when you get your personal story quests, it makes you feel like a big important hero, once you've finished all that, you're back to being nothing to the outside world. Considering some of the titles that the characters can gain, that's absurd.
I have nothing against being considered a hero, I have nothing against the epic story arcs that SWTOR, and many non-MMO RPGs, have, and I have nothing against giving players the recognition that they deserve, but there's a difference between being a hero and your character essentially being a GOD, and SWTOR way breaks that line far too often.
UGH, now the Jedi Knight story is going to be bothering me all day long.
vocenoctum Jan 5th 2012 11:17AM
You're never really treated as "nothing" by the rank & file in TOR. Sure some powerful guys might give you an attitude, but even the folks asking you to go get bitten by a rakghoul are telling you it's because you're an exceptional individual and doing something they can't.
TOR shines with personal instances, including a ship that is your own home.
WoW shines with phasing and showing actions having a real impact on the world once you're done.
I think WoW could use more personal instancing outside of dungeons and I think TOR desperately needs true "phasing" such as WoW uses.
Tyler Caraway Jan 5th 2012 11:50AM
Depends on your class in many cases, and it also depends on how you view things. THe quest in Taris that you speak of, yes, you could say that it's because the Doctor truly, fully believes you're a "big god damn hero" or, you know, it's the fact that your help is literally shaving decades off of her research. Given the fact that she also plans to get filthy rich off the drug that you help her create, she's pretty much willing to tell you anything in order to get you to go get beaten on.
I'm not saying that you get treated like a nobody, because that's certainly not true -- although, again, class depending there are several people that can get a real attitude with you -- but you aren't always treated at the level that your personal story would dictate you should be. It's hard to have this type of discussion when many people still haven't finished even one story, let alone all of them, and don't want spoilers. I'll say this much, there's a difference between people treating you with a moderate level of respect -- which is exactly as your character is often treated in WoW -- and being treated like, say, a member of the Dark Council.
If one of the DC walks into the room, people would pretty much mind every single P and Q, grovel at your feet, and beg for your mercy if they offend you in the slightest. That doesn't happen.
Amaxe Jan 5th 2012 12:35PM
I'd have to disagree with Tyler's assessment. When it comes to the Imperials, there seem to be certain levels of respect that I have seen.
If you're a Sith Pureblood, playing as Marauder or Inquisitor, you tend to be treated with a fear based respect. Human Sith are feared because of office, and seen as equal race wise.
On the other hand, if you're a Twi'lek Inquisitor, other Sith look at you contemptuously and call you slave to your face, while non-Sith imperials look at you with some intimidation due to your class, even though they see your race as inferior.
Then, if you're an alien bounty hunter, you're the bottom of the heap. My Chiss bounty hunter is spoken about contemptuously as if she isn't even in the room, referred to as "it." In one quest, a person mentions that the non-human bounty hunter ranks lower than a droid in Imperial eyes. You get conscripted where others are "asked."
Also, in terms of the Inquisitor quest Tyler references, it's actually a matter of humor. There is evidence of many people who tried to open it. If you try the other options first, nothing happens until you finally get frustrated and blast it with lightning. The Joke is, everyone else assumed there was some mystical answer to the question. Your master essentially comments, "Man, don't we feel stupid"
Remember, if you've played KotoR 1, Korriban was a testing ground for the Sith. A high level Sith could no doubt clean house in these tombs, but they are left for novices to clear.
And that's the key to the TOR heroism. Yes, there are people more powerful than you out there, but they are busy being heroic elsewhere, and it's either you or nobody. However, the point is, when it comes down to it, you are the one who is able to somehow survive when others of similar levels of power have failed... you rise above your peers, not rise above everyone.
Ultimately, if you don't like the emphasis on story, you won't like TOR. If you come into TOR, saying "Gimme phat lootz and titles," you won't like TOR.
If you want to be a hero where your moral choices matter, and that is more important than the "raid or die" mentality, then this is a good game.
Now I'm not WoW-Bashing here. I recognize that what I like is not the same as what others like. But knowing what I like, I'd say TOR succeeds. People with different tastes may find that TOR fails to give them what they want.
So let's be careful of comparing apples and oranges here. I think WoW emphasizes one aspect of play and TOR emphasizes another. Just choose the one that goes with your preferences.
Skarn Jan 5th 2012 2:36PM
"If you want to be a hero where your moral choices matter, and that is more important than the "raid or die" mentality, then this is a good game."
Just specifically regarding this, what is ToR's end game like? Is there something to do other than raid? It's not really fair to compare WoW's end-game to ToR's leveling game. In WoW you can do something other than raid: level another character. Quest in zones you never have. Level one on the other faction if you really want a different story. Even PvP!
Of course, if you've done all that, then there could be nothing left to do in WoW and ToR would be appealing. But what is appealing? The fact that it's got a new leveling experience that you've never done before? That's well and good, but it's not end-game. Once you are done leveling, what do you do in ToR? Dungeons? Raids? PvP? Send your companion off Slicing? What is there in ToR after leveling? Yes, it's got a great leveling game, but is that it? Is ToR raid or die, just like WoW?
We don't want to compare apples and oranges, do we?
Shadda Jan 5th 2012 4:42PM
"I rather detest the way in which SWTOR over-inflates your character's worth."
This. A thousand times this.
On my Jedi Shadow, I feel locked in to this utter Mary Sue of a character. In the opening conversation, you're told that you were "stronger in the force at four" than most Jedi were as teens. You've been trained essentially your whole life. You're given the first ever lightsabre. You redeem the force apparition of the first "dark" Jedi into help him pass on. This is all before level ten, while you're still a padawan! Later, you go on a one woman quest to save all of the Jedi masters from Sith corruption using a super-secret technique that you are the last living practitioner of. This technique puts an enormous strain on the user, and you're expressly told that using it too much will kill you, but ever the martyr you shake it off, and it really doesn't seem to weaken your fighting ability any...
I'd get laughed off of the server if I came up an RP story like that in WoW, but here it's cannon. *shudder*
Amaxe Jan 5th 2012 6:16PM
"I'd get laughed off of the server if I came up an RP story like that in WoW, but here it's cannon."
Thrall is a story that should have been laughed off the server when it was proposed.
People in glass houses...
ravyncat Jan 5th 2012 9:33AM
Personally, I would hate it if there were statues of any of my characters. It doesn't fit who they are. Plus, even if it was phased, what is special about every player having a statue? How the hell would you even RP that?
I prefer being the unsung hero. My characters save the world because it needs to be done--not for money or fame or whatever.
Some of them have deeper reasons like atonement, but again that doesn't merit a statue.
Now I do like it when I'm in Dalaran and all the NPC's greet me and say nice things.
That is believable. Some recognition like that from every group one was exalted with would be nice.
evoxpisces Jan 5th 2012 9:37AM
I AM the hero. They just don't know it yet.
But seriously no I really don't care whether I am acknowledged as a hero in-game or not. One of the many parallels between the game and my actual life. :P
LynMars Jan 5th 2012 9:39AM
Whenever you reach exalted with a faction now--at least since later BC and all of Wrath--NPCs recognize you and talk you up. A lot more NPCs do recognize you for past deeds; GH-Stoutmantle recalled if players helped in old Westfall, and what reward they chose (dunno if he does it for new Westfall). The guys at the start of Northrend, like in Borean Tundra, talk about what a hero you were in Outland and how glad they are you're around.
I recall players being annoyed about Onyxia & Varian, and I was a bit too, but I could see why they did it. I've never labeled my character as the sole hero who took down X boss. She may have been involved in the war effort, fought the baddies' minions, may even have been there, but I rarely take kill credit. I don't like shutting that many other people who also fought out of the story and my RP; it gets hard when everyone and their grandma defeated Yogg-Saron and tell everyone else how much more awesome they are. I feel weird doing epic or legendary quest chains IC and having the only real weapon. It seems to go against the open nature of the game to me.
It's like claiming your character's related or BFF's with a lore figure--story is going to change and add, say, a granddaughter to Fandral's storyline, or people just eyeroll when you say you personally know and hang out with Tirion. I don't mind "I work for that guy" so much; that's the premise of my RP guild, but we don't go around claiming to be Best Pals with Anduin Wrynn--we work for him doing our own soldier things as he's off doing princely/priestly stuff with other lore figures (It would have been nice to know he was off in the Exodar for months when it happened instead of by chance finding out in other media some of read and others don't, but that's another column).
SWTOR does a good job of making the player feel like the focus of the story and the hero--but there are downsides to that level of tightly focused you're-playing-a-single-player-RPG-with-chat-and-party-options storytelling too. The social system makes it work interestingly when you have party members. It's still very much in the "we shall see" stage for me and how it affects personal RP, story, and player contribution as opposed to WoW. Which I am still playing and enjoying as well, so hey.
Kolyarut Jan 5th 2012 9:52AM
I don't mind so long as they don't write off our involvement completely. Black Temple and Ulduar did it right - Maiev and Brann both featured in those zones, but the bulk of the work was done by us and nobody questions that.
On the other hand, the constant fawning and doe-eyed gazing at Thrall by the dragon aspects as if they've forgotten we're still in the room is less inspiring - we're here guys, can we at least get a nod of recognition? And the (two!) statues of Tirion Fordring, as if he slew the Lich King single handedly, are nothing short of an insult (that said, I do like the idea that personality-wise, despite being a Champion of the Light, he is just that much of a jackass - kill or be killed, Champions!).
I would love to see more major lore characters get actively involved in dungeons, like in Halls of Reflection (which was a superb example of doing it right) - it would be a good way of getting Mekkatorque or Lore'themar out of the house from time to time - but the way they've handled it most recently, I'd be very wary.
Noah Jan 5th 2012 9:58AM
Yes and no. I don't want statues built of me, but I do want SOME recognition. I mean, I killed two old gods, both of Deathwing's kids (twice), beat the twilight's hammer, defeated Ragnaros twice, Al'akir once, Arthas, Illidan, Anub'arak, the aspect of Magic, Kel'thuzad, Kil'jaeden AND Archimonde, but yet I still don't even get one lousy song for me. If I had to imagine myself into the WoW universe, I think my Tauren druid would be Hamuul's son, my Orc warrior would be one of the Warsong clan, and my BE mage would be an assistant to Grand Magister Rommath. I like not having fame, because it gives me kinda a Batman persona, but at the same time, I've killed more godlike figures then I can count on both my fingers and toes (tauren really only have 6 fingers and two toes though), can I at least be, like, an assistant to Garrosh? I killed his last assistant!
Thal Jan 5th 2012 9:59AM
Easier to make one NPC a hero than 10 million players.
Also, in a way, we were the heroes/champions at ToC.