Don't mind me, just passing Gloves of Liquid Smoke and Rathrak to the disenchanter for the fourth time.

Repeating myself for the billionth time:

The first MMO game that creates a "smart" loot system where the dungeon drops only items that the classes can use, and would potentially be upgrades, will completely dominate the market.

GW2 might have that solution btw.

Whatever game does implement smart looting will have to dramatically increase their content output to keep players busy.

Not really sure what smart loot has to do with LFR loot rules, though. Items almost never go to waste with 25 people, especially since all people present are there for loot. Not always so with Normal/Heroic raids.

Nevermind the second paragraph, I'm an idiot. Forgot the context of the post you were responding to.

Kind of to back up my own point, doesn't everyone agree the goodie bags from low-level dungeons work out really well? (when you're upgrading a non-boa slot that is)

Lol no! It keeps giving my baby Balance Druid Agi gear.

I'm sorry loop, I just disagree. Less randomness in dungeon/raid loot makes things better. For example:

-Badges of justice in the BC to help people fill in the slots they would get bad RNG for...
-...led into the emblem system in Wrath which became very popular...
-...which has led into the point system in Cataclysm, which is one of the really great things that blizzard has done in this expansion
-Goodie bags from lowbie dungeons (as mentioned above)
-Pvp has exactly zero RNG when it comes to loot, and pvp is intensely popular in wow.

apologies for the GW2 reference above, it was non-sequitor and very few people probably know what I meant. WoW has enough examples on it's own to support my hypothesis.

I think it's fine to keep at least some RNG for things like weapons and trinkets, so long as there are non-RNG ways to get upgrades but not-top gear at those slots, and that is another thing blizzard has done well at with cataclysm. Implementing a "goodie-bag" type reward system for finishing a raid or a portion of a raid would be a great way to remove some RNG, reward players, and also motivated players to try to finish a raid or portion of it. I think this is also something blizz got right with rewarding valor points after completion of dragon soul wings, versus individual bosses.

I'm gonna go with Pyro here and add that the less RNG a game has in its rewards system, the better. People want to play a game because they enjoy it, not because they like running a treadmill that might or might not have the reward they want at the end of their workout. Giving us specific rewards that we can work for and know will be waiting for us at the end of the road is more motivation to play, not less. More RNG just means more frustration.

See, as a player facing a boss, sure, randomness feels bad.

But randomness has a flipside, and it's this: maybe you'll get lucky.

That's a powerful attraction. And less random also has a flipside: it's a grind.

It feels bad when it doesn't go your way, but the anticipation that maybe this time the loot is yours, that's one of the most effective things to keep us coming back.

Having played during almost all of Vanilla, the move to guaranteed loot mixed with RNG loot was a godsend for me. Having said that...

Comparing full guaranteed to full RNG is misguided, considering those are not the only two options available to developers (as has been the case since BC). Really though, it hasn't changed much since Wrath. All Cataclysm did is streamline an already existing system. If anything, less gear has been available via currency during Cataclysm than during Wrath, even with the latest patch (all five pieces of both T9 and T10 were available for purchase...something that has not been true for any of Cata's Tiers).

Comparing PVE to PVP is also rather misguided, considering the two experiences are vastly different. For example, in order to experience a new PVE fight, players must wait for new content patches. In order to experience a new PVP fight, players must simply queue. While gear is certainly a part of PVP incentives, it doesn't play nearly as much of a role in it. It doesn't have to.

Look up skinner box on Wikipedia some time.

The upside to completely guaranteed loot is blizzard can gate gearing to any time frame they want. That's where I compare it to pvp, there is a set rate at which you gear up, it takes x amount of weeks to get full current pvp gear. This will extend replayability for high end guilds that gear up fast, while giving an incentive to slower paced raiders to try to finish raid wings. Just my theory of course.

reguarding the loop vs pyro debate here, I think it is obvious any smart loot system will abrogate one of Blizzards major design/principle. That you grind grind and grind again to get anywhere. This more than anything else led me to leave the game, as it became work. So there is some room to say smarter loot could be beneficial to retain some subs, but it is a balancing act to balance people quitting from boredom (due to finishing relevant content) or quitting from tiring of the never ending grind.

First off, there is nothing wrong with less randomness in the drops.
The idea that it will make content obsolete too fast is true...but then that's a good thing. It will force blizz to offer more content faster...instead of the 6 months of 3 troll dungeons.

If you still want some randomness, make the "smart" loots system only applicable to raids maybe and maybe make it detect class and not spec...so that you might still have some drops that are not upgrades for your raider's current spec. But at least the items would at least be usable and would give a chance for some off-spec upgrades.

The less DEing done in raids the better. There is nothing worse than having daggers drop in DS week after week, when your 10 man crew doesn't have a rogue.

Which brings us to another point, "Why are there dagger drops in DS??? When the legendary starter daggers are better and easier to get?"

sorry for the rant...i haven't had my coffee yet.

"People want to play a game because they enjoy it, not because they like running a treadmill that might or might not have the reward they want at the end of their workout."

I complained on the official boards that all bosses (heroics included) need to drop tokens you could spend at a Boss Vendor to purchase the items you keep losing out on, but the no-life contingent told me to keep grinding the dungeon like everyone else has since the beginning of time until I eventually win it, even if the sun turns into a red giant and incinerates the Earth before that happens.

Yeah, sounds like fun.