Ready Check: What makes raiding fun?

Ahh, it is a new year, and as is common during this time, we put aside a spot of our days in order to reflect upon the previous year. We do this to see where we went wrong, where we went right, what aspects we think we need to improve upon.
Video games, particularly MMOs, are not so different from people, and MMO players too must undergo this same reflection. In WoW especially, one thing stands out above all the rest: Raiding continues to be a failure.
Now, now, I am not apart of the camp which decries the dumbing down of content. In fact, I still laud the quality of WoW's raids that Blizzard is putting out, even if I think they are becoming a bit light on the size factor. I am instead speaking in terms of sheer numbers. Raiding has never been an aspect of WoW that a majority of the community participated in, despite its being where the largest amount of new content is seen throughout expansions. Even though raiding has grown more and more accessible over this past year, there are still more people who don't raid than do.
On the matter of accessibility
The Raid Finder, for what demerits some give it, has been a huge success and vastly increased the amount of people that are raiding. Not matter how or why it is that the playerbase is raiding, the simple fact that it is is a leap in the right direction. I would say that Cataclysm as an expansion has been wholly focused on problems of accessibility -- that is, allowing a broader audience of players to attain the capabilities they need in order to complete certain content. Yet I would contend that this is merely one of a multitude of factors that hinders raiding numbers.
Yes, the long-held stigma that raiding is hard, time-consuming, and only for those who can devote their entire lives into the game does need to be broken, but I feel it rather has at this point and we still aren't where we should be in terms of raiding numbers. As Blizzard moves forward into the new year with a new expansion coming in the not too distant future, it needs to look at the other facets of raiding that might be holding it back.
One of these aspects that I want to bring up is fun.

Fun is such an undefinable quality that something can posses -- worses it is often difficult to put into words. Idly tossing around a yo-yo can be fun despite that it's so basic, so simple. Baking an eight-course meal that requires hours of preparation and hard work can be fun even though it's difficult and time-consuming. Fun is such an amorphous trait that it's hard to say, "This is what needs to be done to make things fun."
However, this is exactly what needs to be done, because raiding should be fun and the players expect that. Therefore, we have to take a look at what has been fun in terms of past raiding so that we can hope to recreate it for the future.
The case of Karazhan
Whenever raiding is brought up, one of the first topics that enters the discussion is Karazhan. Everyone from that time period loved Kara; it was the epitome of a fun raid. The scenery, the bosses, the music, the design -- everything about the entire instance was absolutely perfect, yet there is little about the instance that would fit into the current raid design.
To start with, Karazhan was huge. I don't just mean that it had a large number of bosses, which it did, but the overall layout of the zone was simply enormous. Wiping on Shade of Aran or Netherspite or Opera meant a very lengthy run back for the raid that you simply don't see in today's raids.
In fact, I would say that most raiders would be annoyed by the length of the run back from a majority of the boss encounters in that instance, yet it never seemed to be an issue. Sure, people complained about Serpentshrine Cavern's run-back, which was horrendously long as well, but it really wasn't any worse than several of Karazhan's. It's strange how a problem from one instance can be absent in another despite their being entirely the same.
Regardless, I think that it is time for Blizzard to give up on Karazhan, as it were. Karazhan was magical; it was perfect. It was a flawless raid that simply cannot be replicated again. It wasn't the design of the raid so much as it was the timing, the atmosphere, everything. Karazhan was more than a raid and more than an instance; it was a mindset, a time period, a community perception to which we cannot get back. Yes, Karazhan was fun, but struggling till madness to recreate it isn't going to solve anything.
The case of Ulduar
The second raid that tops everyone's list is Ulduar. On a personal level, I simply don't understand the fascination that players have with the zone, nor do I get what it is about it that made it so fun for the wide majority. Perhaps it is my selective memory, but I recall the vast amount of complaining about Flame Leviathan, how buggy and utterly boring Vezax was until the hotfixes, and a multitude of other boss problems. I remember many complaints over Hodir, Mimiron, Yog, Vezax, and XT's needing to be retuned. Even the trash in Ulduar had to be nerfed because it was "too hard" for a wide number of people.
One perk that I have seen frequently mentioned was the execution of hard modes in Ulduar, which followed the model of doing things before or during the encounter instead of merely flipping a toggle. To that end, I have to side with Blizzard. It was more fun and more engaging to kill XT's heart or change the order in which you kill the Iron Council, but Blizzard was right in that this was an entirely unintuitive concept, not to mention that it didn't work for every boss.

I liked Ulduar, but I certainly didn't love it with the same fervor that many people seem to. Nothing against those who do, but it just wasn't it for me. I'm much more a Naxx fan, although I prefer the original over the remake, but isn't that always how it goes?
More input from more raiders
You might wonder, why bring this all up? And why only mention arguments against what is commonly thought of as fun? The reason is because I want to hear it from you. I can sit here all day and talk about what I think is fun, but I'm just one person. I want for the community to tell me what they think is fun.
I want more than "Ulduar, because it was awesome," though. I know lots of people think Ulduar is fun -- so now you have my groundwork against it. Counter it! Find another raid you liked instead! Tell me, what about raiding do you find fun?
Ready Check shares all the strategies and inside information you need to take your raiding to the next level. Be sure to look up our strategy guides to Cataclysm's 5-man instances, and for more healer-centric advice, visit Raid Rx.
Filed under: Raiding, Ready Check (Raiding)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Shyster Jan 6th 2012 5:17PM
Well for me it began as being fun for the challenge and messing around with friends, it evolved into being a good way to get gear as well as the previous reasons, continued to no longer being a challenge but still being fun as well as good for gear. Eventually it ended up being too much of the same thing, raid -> gear up -> beat all fights -> get bored -> new patch -> rinse and repeat. So I've come to the conclusion that whatever was once fun about raiding has lost it's lustre or in some form degenerated. No I don't blame LFR, no I don't blame difficulty, no I don't blame cataclysm. I do however feel that Blizzard not changing it up much has made a big difference, and doubtless that's one of the reasons a notable number of people have quit recently, and I myself have stopped playing for now.
koolguyry Jan 6th 2012 5:24PM
This is why players love Ulduar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GG323s_CaQ
Daviezero Jan 6th 2012 5:28PM
An active toggle mechanic, versus clicking heroic before you start the raid, always left me with a greater feeling of player agency. We weren't simple dealing with the encounter as it was presented, we were controlling the evolution of the fight, and in a way that offered greater risk and reward. What could be more satisfying than that?
Blizz has tried to keep this feeling alive with some of the Dragon Soul encounters (slime priority on Yor'Sahj, order of aspects on Madness), but these are very limited compared to what we've seen in the past. There'slittle incentive to pick a harder version once you have the related acheivements, so it quickly becomes a matter of optimization.
Caylynn Jan 6th 2012 5:59PM
Agree 100%.
Homeschool Jan 6th 2012 7:20PM
I hate to rag on sites that reveal everything about everything, but part of the fun of places like Ulduar are the discoveries - WoW has lost the mystery with all of the mining and info-sharing. It's tough to beat that moment when the heart breaks, or someone thinks "what happens when you push the button-that-must-not-be-pushed"? It's a shock, and exciting, and then you're part of the in-club that knows the secret.
On the other hand, having the guide and carrying it out? Not as much fun. When you go in knowing "we kill in this order", it's all execution - no mystery.
I miss having secrets to reveal.
Succulent Jan 6th 2012 9:52PM
While I agree that I enjoyed the non-toggle method a lot more (makes more sense than a simple on-off button), I can understand why Blizzard wouldn't be able to keep it up.
They stated that it would be a huge task coming up with a boss fight with it's own mechanic and then, for each boss, heroic mechanics and special ways for each bosses heroic mode to be activated.
It's unfortunate because it was a lot of fun activating these hard modes, but just the way it's gonna have to be. We'll just have to settle for happy memories it seems.
robsmith77 Jan 6th 2012 5:46PM
To me, fun = enjoyment. If I'm enjoying something then it's fair to say I'm having fun.
In terms of raiding, I find that I derive enjoyment from doing something with a group of people that I know and like, working or progressing toward a common goal. I enjoy the interaction and the banter that a raid evening inevitably brings.
Sidfish Jan 6th 2012 5:47PM
I don't think it's so much the hard mode implementation of Ulduar but the general lack of inventiveness with every raid that followed it. Dragon Soul is a culmination of that. The DS hard modes are just so uninspired. It seems like every fight has a little tweak that differentiates it from it's normal mode counterpart. Other than that it's more damage and a higher dps requirement. It's hard to blame the designers. At this point it's difficult to reinvent things, particularly when you have what I assume to be an insanely tight deadline for the upcoming expansion.
I hope we see more inspired raid content for MoP. Using Kara and Ulduar as a springboard would be a good start.
REDMJOEL Jan 6th 2012 8:41PM
I would claim that to be true except for yorsahj. Having to deal with 3 abilities does change that fight significantly
R. Jan 6th 2012 5:49PM
To me, the things that make raiding fun are the same thing that make other group activities fun. Friends, challenge, and rewards.
SomnambulistArygos Jan 6th 2012 5:54PM
I loved Ulduar because it FELT epic... the first battle was with the loot pinata of FL, but it took a good 5-10+ minutes in a vehicle just to traverse the area, not to mention the time spent killing trash. All raids are oversized and designed to make you feel small, but Ulduar, in particular, felt like it was the hall of the titans themselves. It's also very aesthetically beautiful; on a PTR patch before the raid was released I spent a good hour running around inside the empty instance, just taking screenshots.
ICC was another instance that had amazing themeing and feeling like that (Arthas battle, anyone?), but with over a year to work on it, many people had time to get bored of it. Ulduar was current content for just a few months, meaning some people only got a taste, and always wanted to go back and see the rest.
Caylynn Jan 6th 2012 6:01PM
Indeed. Ulduar felt huge and was incredibly beautiful. FL, at the time, was heralded as "the way vehicle fights *should* be done." I greatly enjoyed raiding Ulduar. It was a blast.
durandal Jan 6th 2012 6:01PM
I actually liked ICC for the universal token system they implemented. It's a pity it wasn't continued for Cataclysm. It was simple and beautiful because it gave you a lot of freedom how to upgrade your gear.
Concerning the fun part of raids: One problem I have with raids is, as soon as I beat the end boss, my motivation to do the same raid again drops to zero. I count the victory as a personal achievement but soon after, I don't really get any satisfaction in spending any more hours there as necessary. Same is true for LFR: It felt epic when I beat the current end boss for the first time in my WoW career, but all runs thereafter, I do it only as a quick means to get VP. Even worse, LFR even destroyed my motivation to do Dragon Soul on 10 men. And here's the fun: I'm feeling good about it because now I have more time to do other things, and many of them offline.
freebeatfly Jan 6th 2012 6:09PM
I think people just felt immersed in raids like Karazhan and Ulduar... they just pull you in, they make you 'feel' something. I liked ICC as well, it had an ominous feeling about it.
Personally I didn't feel anything for the Cataclysm raids. Maybe slightly for BWD, but that's about it.
LFR was a good idea, but its reduced raiding to a quick faceroll hc. I mean, its great that everyone gets to see end-content now, but to be completely honest, I don't get to see much of Dragon Soul at all... everything is just a "go go go" blur.
I think this all has to do with how the game has evolved though; in Classic the lore was extremely important and everywhere... and expansion by expansion the game has become more focused on numbers and output. Get in, get your epics, get out.
Like you said, having to run through Karazhan to get back to a boss could not be acceptable in today's Wow, or the amount of trash mobs there were to clear for no reward in old raids. It's a slippery slope, and there's no going back now.
One thing that I might suggest is for Blizzard to make boss-fights slower, and by that I mean create mechanics where you have to stop dps and stand on a button or go pick something up. I'm brainstorming here, but I think it would definitely increase the fun factor! :) To make you stop a second and think. That's what the hardmodes and achievements in Ulduar were all about. "Oh wait! Do this, now that! Ok got that, now wait"
We should look forward to raiding not for the loot, but for the sheer fun of the fight!
(Controversial but I absolutely loved Sindragosa!)
Spellotape Jan 6th 2012 6:16PM
I don't get the Ulduar love, either ... It seemed like it became cool to say you loved it as a comparison to TOC when most of the people I know who "love" Ulduar were only able to clear it (or at least see more of it) once the latter was released.
Caylynn Jan 6th 2012 6:55PM
Nope, did all of Ulduar, including a bunch of the "hard modes" before ToC was released.
Spellotape Jan 7th 2012 5:51AM
To be fair, Caylynn, I did say "people I know" - I would include people I've seen on forums/this site/other, as well, and I don't recall seeing you anywhere :\
GhostWhoWalks Jan 6th 2012 6:18PM
"Regardless, I think that it is time for Blizzard to give up on Karazhan, as it were. Karazhan was magical; it was perfect. It was a flawless raid that simply cannot be replicated again. It wasn't the design of the raid so much as it was the timing, the atmosphere, everything. Karazhan was more than a raid and more than an instance; it was a mindset, a time period, a community perception to which we cannot get back. Yes, Karazhan was fun, but struggling till madness to recreate it isn't going to solve anything."
This is pretty much the only thing about the article that I disagree with, a statement that I find to be wildly off the mark. It's not that Blizzard has been trying and failing to replicate Karazhan, it's that it hasn't been trying at all. I can define for you, very clearly, what it is about Karazhan and Ulduar that people like so much:
They're dungeon crawls.
As in, Dungeons and Dragons-style. I think the biggest "fun"-issue that has been plaguing Blizzard's raids, which has actually started to spill over into their 5-mans, is that every instance needs to be some sort of crisis situation with an imminent threat that needs to be dealt with. While there are certainly situations where such scenarios are appropriate, givings us nothing BUT that kills some of the variety of the game. Every raid ends up needing to be some plunge into an enemy stronghold where every boss is a roadblock that must be cleared in a very linear fashion, but people don't want that all the time.
Think back to some of the dungeons like pre-Cata Shadowfang Keep or Wailing Caverns or Scholomance or Stratholme or Blackrock Depths. You didn't go into these places as part of some large-scale assault or to defeat a specific villain, these dungeons simply presented an environment and tempted you to explore it, finding bosses or challenges as you came to them. Part of the fun was the wonder of discovery, uncovering shortcuts or hidden bosses. The focus was on the areas themselves, not on the bosses. Karazhan and Ulduar, with their multiple layers, sprawling complexes and optional bosses, utilized this formula as well, and it's the formula that Blizzard needs to introduce back into the design mix in order to get people interested in raiding.
Revynn Jan 6th 2012 6:46PM
This is one of the things I'm looking forward to with MoP. The fact that there wont be a Big Bad we'll be chasing the entire expansion and that we're going to a brand new continent we have no pre-existing knowledge or lore about is going to (hopefully) bring back the discovery aspect for those of us who have been playing for a long time.
The "ZOMGSAVETHEWORLDWEREALLGUNNADIE!!!1!" raids are fine and all, but there's been entirely way too many of them for too long now.
N-train Jan 6th 2012 9:23PM
The element of discovery is something that I think is missing from WoW in general, and is something I think Blizz really needs to be capitalizing on to retain the interest of an increasingly jaded playerbase in an 8 year old game.
Some of the most fun I had in Cata was flying around the opened up areas of the old world and Vashjir just exploring. I think it didn't help that everything is so focused on bouncing from quest hub to quest hub, often times things felt more like set pieces in a Final Fantasy game than a real "world" like Skyrim.
In terms of raiding I think the same principles apply, I actually really liked the sense of urgency and excitement in places like ICC, FL, and DS, where you've got a certain goal and you know exactly what you're in there to do, but they lose a lot of their effect when there isn't an Ulduar or Kara raid to just spend time exploring as contrast. There isn't anything inherently wrong with a "Deathwing is at the top of that tower and we need to go kill him", but I agree that when there isn't really another option it really muddles the effect.
I think the reason Ulduar is looked at so fondly is that it combined both "worlds", so to speak. You knew that Yogg was at the bottom of this and that he needed to be stopped, there was a sense of urgency that if this wasn't dealt with we'd all be in trouble. But you also got to detour from that and explore, and the whole secondary Algalon mystery was the icing on the cake.