But with the way things have been lately, and the dwindling pool of people who're willing to commit anything resembling EFFORT to get anything, people just want to join guilds for the level 25 perks and could give a shit about anything beyond that.

It's easy enough to spam-invite people to your guild in theory, but right now when EVERYTHING is handed to the player, the level of self-entitlement you see nowadays makes the social aspect of the guild fall apart. it's gotten to the point where we're starting to see people advertising their guilds on a regular basis again because nobody really CARES about guilds the way they used to. When you can LFR until you're geared enough to PUG the current content, where is the benefit to having a guild?

On my server, and the servers my other friends play on, most guilds are merely a vanity tag and extra bank slots for a small group of people, and the only reason you ever hear about someone looking for a guild is so they can get the lvl 25 perks.

Couple that with the AWFUL guild recruitment system in WoW and yer looking at a pretty bleak outcome.

@Furiursa

So you'd rather go back to people 'playing nice', and sucking up (in more ways than one), to guilds in order to see content and move out of the rut that was endgame? You wan't to go back to people unsubbing due to frustration, personal issues, or other matters that caused them to fall behind...and get left behind?

Yes it's a struggle right now, but wouldn't you rather want folks who actually, really and truly, want to be in your guild? Or do yo just want a ton, of fair weather members, who will drop you like a hot potato if your progression falls behind?

Oh and...
"But with the way things have been lately, and the dwindling pool of people who're willing to commit anything resembling EFFORT to get anything, people just want to join guilds for the level 25 perks and could give a shit about anything beyond that."

That's a bit loaded don't you think? LFR does take a certain amount of real effort, especially if you've never raided before in your gameing life.

I think the problem here is that some of you high end raiders have completely forgotten what it's like to be the normal, average, WOW players. Your so advanced and high up at the top that you forget what it's like to struggle with some of the games mechanics and builds.

You guys need to remember, what it feels like to be at the bottom of this game.

@Valis

"That's a bit loaded don't you think? LFR does take a certain amount of real effort, especially if you've never raided before in your gameing life."

I have to disagree on this point. As a social experiment I queued for LFR as dps on my Paladin (which is mainspec prot). I proceeded to pretty much remain alt-tabbed for the majority of trash and barely contributed something resembling dps on bosses. I survived all the fights and walked away from tier shoulders. Probably performing the least of anyone in that raid.

Did I contribute any real effort? Hardly. Did I get my "entitlement" absolutely.

FYI I lead a raid on my main (Druid tank) that is currently 8/8 normal and planning to start heroics once post-new years numbers settle back. I honestly have no problem with LFR, it's done the game a world of service, maybe I'm just lucky that my guild/raid has been tight-knit and drama free for so long, but I honestly don't see a problem with all the new cross-realm raids/dungeons that are accomplished at the touch of the button, cause our small community still thrives.

@Valis
Your overly optimistic view on how guilds will get stronger is flawed on SO many levels BUT I will concede one thing: LFR in particular does a good job of keeping people in enough purples so they don't get all bent out of shape if they don't get the loot drops they want in regulars or heroics.

But you still haven't addressed my original issue: Guilds don't NEED to exist at all aside from guild perks. You don't need anyone's help to do heroics, you don't need anyone's help to raid, you don't need anyone's help to do ANYTHING in the game at ALL now aside from the things guild perks themselves provide, so all people want to know is "are you a level 25 guild already?" If that's a players first response, I'll always send them packing.

Unless your guild is top end progression you aren't anything 'special', and nobody gives a damn about your tabard, your website, your code of ethics or any of that, it's all about what can THEY get out of you. So as for getting stronger, perhaps you need to take a hard look at how things have wound up, many larger guilds simply fizzle out, many raiding guilds on the servers I play on have disappeared, people are to the point of offering to level and gear up people in the hopes of POSSIBLY fielding a raiding group... how is that 'stronger' exactly?

And why, when my guilds in particular weren't even raiding guilds, and hardly the 'gatekeepers of raiding', we had a stronger core group, we actually raided more, and we had a PURPOSE even when we weren't doing endgame content. How is it that we were more social and more willing to help each other out when someone needed to run a dungeon or somesuch? Now people barely even grunt a 'hello' at each other before hopping in the LFG/LFR queues. They do their stuff, hang out a few minutes in Stormwind afterwards and then log? It's hardly a unique problem, some of our ex members say the same thing is happening in the guilds they moved to.

Stronger indeed... :P

I think you're being optimistic, when people choose LFR over joining a guild to see content, another subscriber who you want doesn't magically appear.

I know as GM of a 25man raiding guild, recruits have been few and far between in this tier and QUALITY recruits even more so.

We've survived (been touch and go at times) unlike many of the 25man guilds on Khaz'Goroth.

Don't get me wrong, I personally like LFR, but it doesnt make recruiting / raiding easier, with the exception of the availability of loot and the ability to 'try before we trial"