Blue Posts and Other WoW News: The heart of the MoP talent system

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Blue posts
Quote:
So my question is, with only 6 'tiers' of talents after MoP, what is happening to all the other talents that are currently in game? Are they going to be skills you learn from your class trainer, either active or passive? Or removed from the game completely?
So my question is, with only 6 'tiers' of talents after MoP, what is happening to all the other talents that are currently in game? Are they going to be skills you learn from your class trainer, either active or passive? Or removed from the game completely?
A little of both. :)
To better explain, let's divide the current talents into five categories: 1) mandatory, 2) very cool, but not mandatory, 3) sort of cool, 4) boring, and 5) useless.
We're going to give you all of the "mandatory" talents to your class spec, and you'll learn those talents at certain levels like you do with core class spells. Players who skip over what we consider mandatory talents today -- like Raging Blow or Hot Streak -- are unintentionally (or maybe even intentionally) gimping themselves, and that's not what we want to have happen. We want players to be able to experience the full power of their class, so we're going to award certain talents straight-out.
The second category of talents -- the cool, but not mandatory ones -- are really the heart of the new talent system (they're the talents you'll probably be choosing from in each of new six tiers). You may be glad you have talent A, but talent B and talent C are also compelling options, and it should ideally be an interesting choice about which one you take and when.
The third category of talents are still pretty cool, but they just aren't at the same level as other talents. These talents make good glyphs. For example, an early version of the warrior tree had Rude Interruption as a talent, but we feel it's too situational to compete with the other talents, so we'll likely make it a glyph.
The next category are boring talents -- the kind that reduce cooldowns or increase damage on some abilities. In most cases, we're just baking talents these right into the spells themselves. While there were occasionally situations where you got to decide which of these talents to take, the answers often relied on complex math problems that some other player ended up solving for most of us.
Finally, the current trees (despite our best efforts) still have some bad talents. They're the talents you almost inevtiably end up with when you have a talent tree with X rows and Y columns that you need to populate. In the end, not a lot of players end up taking these talents, so we'll just cut them. We don't think they'll be missed, but if turns out that players wind up actually missing some of the Cataclysm talents in the Mist of Pandaria design, then we've probably made a mistake somewhere. Ideally, you won't miss a thing and will have more fun picking talents that cater to your play style (or, at the very least, the current situation.)
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Diatenium Jan 20th 2012 10:00PM
My concern with this example is the potential for "Sort of cool" talents to be incorrectly perceived as boring talents.
Like, for example, as a Holy Paladin, Conviction isn't nearly as compelling as Infusion of Light or Daybreak, but it's a nifty mechanic that raises the value of crit in a somewhat interesting way. It could be construed as not all that compelling though or possibly mandatory for dps/healer specs if made into a glyph, which might be the case for ret but not as much as you'd think for holy.
I'm sure, though, that with plenty of dialogue as the talent system progresses we'll not run into anything like that.
Chris W Jan 20th 2012 11:47PM
What if I miss talents from wrath?
Chris W Jan 24th 2012 5:15AM
You know how you get rid of cookie cutter builds? Not less choices, less talents, or making everything equal, you eliminate the NEED for cookie cutter builds.
Tune normal mode raiding for mediocre builds, only 30% of the people in the raid have food buffs, and 1/2 the class buffs are missing or not used.
Know what you will have? Raiding like you had in Vanilla and most of BC, happier less stressed out players, raid leaders and guilds.
If this is too easy for the elitists, they can do hard mode.
Al Jan 21st 2012 12:33AM
Is it just me, or was that the exact same thing they said about their Wrath and Cata revamps?
Drakkenfyre Jan 22nd 2012 11:24AM
This is one of the reasons why I have said several times, their attempts at eliminating "cookie-cutter" specs will never work. As long as one talent is better in a situation than another, it will be picked.
They keep boiling down talents trying to eliminate that, and make them more "interesting", however it's getting to the point where unless they simply make every talent completely equal, and thus no real choice anyway, they are going to keep running into these problems.
Having been three times now, I fully expect to see "We tried to do (X) with this talent system, but failed. We're trying something different this time" again at the end of Mists of Pandaria.
Zapwidget Jan 21st 2012 1:33AM
"make every talent completely equal, and thus no real choice anyway"
Uhm, I don't want to be an ass here, but the only way talents will ever be real choices is if they are completely equal. When talents are completely equal, then the only thing they affect is your play style. When one talent is clearly superior to another in performance, then there is no choice, other than the universal choice of right or wrong.
For a choice to be a choice, and for it to have meaning, you have to be choosing between equally desirable options.
Al Jan 21st 2012 2:05AM
With all the baking and combinations, it seems like all they really ever cut are the 'flavour' abilities.
Sentry Totem, Bubble-Hearth, Eyes of the Beast, Divine Intervention.. please come home, we miss you.
Khirsah Jan 21st 2012 2:07AM
@Drakkenfyre...
"As long as one talent is better in a situation than another, it will be picked."
This is, as far as I understand it, almost exactly what Blizz is going for, with the key word being "situation".
Very few, if any, of the proposed talents for MoP are straight damage or stat increases. They are mobility and utility talents. I play a rogue. In some cases, it might be better for me to use Shadowstep to quickly move from target to target. In other cases, I might want to use Burst of Speed (or whatever it's called, on the same tier) for the movement impairing effect breakage. In still others, I might want to use Prep for the extra set of cooldowns.
But nobody is going to be able to quantify those choices on spreadsheet. It is going to be "situationally" dependent, based on the fight, and what role you are filling.
For example: Since we don't know what the new Dungeons are going to be, I'll use Az in Well of Eternity. If I'm on interrupt duty, ShS might be the best option so I can get back and forth from Az quickly. But if someone else is interrupting, and my only job is the adds, I would probably use Prep for the extra vanish/cheapshot. And a strong argument could be made Burst of Speed is better than either one, because it is almost like having unlimited sprints.
But neither of those choices will affect my dps. Sure, I'll probably do more dps just going after the adds, because it is slightly less target switching, but that is a function of my role, not of the talent choice I made.
From what I understand, Blizz is trying to remove the theorycrafting from talent selection, and I think they are on the right track. Sure, in some fights an obvious choice might present itself, but again, I think that will be more a function of the fight itself than of a flaw in the talent tree design.
I like the proposed design. I don't think it represents a "dumbing-down" of the game. Like someone mentioned, right now, most players go to Elitsist Jerks or anothr site to find out how to spec anyway. It seems with new talent system, there will at least be a lot more discussion about the pros and cons of using one talent over another in a given fight. And a lot will depend on how you like to play your class.
Infinite Duck Jan 21st 2012 10:58AM
Yeah what Khirsah said is pretty true. I have quite a few 85s and when I turn 85 I drop the spec I levelled with and switch to what I call 'real' spec. And if there's not a "these are the talents you have to have" link to a talent chart on Elitest Jerks, I get pretty grumpy, because I know 90-100% of the talents I'll need are mandatory, it's those last few talents I squint at and decide which ones I like the most and make some decision, but other than that is, 'copy the spec on EJ', look at the rotation, and start practicing! When it comes to the new talents I really look forward to looking at them and actually be able to chose my talents, now if only Blizzard would also help with developing rotations in game.
Killik Jan 21st 2012 12:43PM
Some talents may be clearly superior for certain fights, but it's not going to be as simple as looking at a spread sheet (made by somebody else) and reading "talent X does 5% more damage". That's at least a minor improvement.
frdmg Jan 21st 2012 12:40AM
Basically they are dumbing this part of WoW down to preschool level as they have raiding.
"Players who skip over what we consider mandatory talents today -- like Raging Blow or Hot Streak -- are unintentionally (or maybe even intentionally) gimping themselves, and that's not what we want to have happen. We want players to be able to experience the full power of their class, so we're going to award certain talents straight-out."......so when is Blizz going to start playing our toons as well. They are now telling us how to spec, why not just play them too.
I have avoided complaing about the complete dumbing down of this game since BC, but already nerfing DS after 1 month when LFR was suppose to have prevented this, and now all this linear questing, talent trees being idiot proof. I said I would never join in with the crowd but at this point "this may be the end of WoW for me." Make sure you all order your collectors edition of MoP early to make sure you get the included coloring books and crayons.
Martogg Jan 21st 2012 1:33AM
You say they are dumbing down WoW. I say they're trimming out obsolete parts of an old game.
- "They are now telling us how to spec, why not just play them too." Most raiders just go to someone like Elitist Jerks to tell them how to spec. Frankly, making 40-45 interesting and meaningful talents per tree is not feasible. There is always a cookie cutter spec. At least this new system is trying to give you legitimate options on things that will change your class. Bliz is not telling you how to spec. They're taking the specs everyone is using anyways and just making them baseline.
- "nerfing DS after 1 month when LFR was suppose to have prevented this" RF was intended to merely allow more players to see the content and not to bolster the difficulty of normal. It is frankly faceroll easy and not in any way a challenge. 1 month after DS is out and fewer than 200K have cleared normal. Assuming they still have around 10mil players that's only 2% of the player base. I'd say a nerf is not out of bounds. And so many that complain about the nerf never talk about how its only 5% and completely optional. If you want the challenge from the encounter, turn it off.
- You complain bout linear questing. Giving ToR a try and not having the elegant flow of block questing blizzard has gotten so good at was very jarring for me. I did not like the constant back tracking, easily missing hubs, and all the little refinements that WoW has made so commonplace in quest design.
Grovinofdarkhour Jan 21st 2012 2:14AM
THERE MUST ALWAYS BE A COOKIE CUTTER SPEC!
Al Jan 21st 2012 3:39AM
Place the Beast-Master Tree on my character.. now, leave this spec!
matt Jan 22nd 2012 9:21AM
I think for DPS you will see EJ start posting a "cookie cutters" for each fight in the tier. The quantity of theory crafting to be done will explode. IMO this is good for the game. For tanking/healing I am sure there are also some changes to make between fights but those are often a little harder to sim so it might not be such a big bonanza for the TC crowd.
The system really falls apart for hybrids (druids and Paladins especially) you make 6 choices to define your build but only 2 of them have anything to do with the role you have chosen to play. Take a look at the druid tree, try to imagine you play a single PvE role and make a build. what you find is that you have to choose 3-4 things that you will never use out of only 6 choices. there is no cookie cutter because it simply does not matter what you choose. They have a lot of work to do if they want pallys, druids, monks and (to a lesser degree) shaman to have "fun" with the new talent system.
Lur Jan 21st 2012 4:15AM
I used to care about what Blizzard did to WoW, and then I took an arrow in the knee...
Lur Jan 21st 2012 4:29AM
Actually... I should have written that to say, "I used to care about what Activision did to WoW... etc." Because, when I look back on it all, that's when things started a slight decline that has accelerated over time. I can remember asking the question, "Why do the WoW forums have advertisements now? Isn't 6 million people's $14.99 a month enough?" THAT was Activision, because no one at Blizzard was greedy enough to even think of it before they got involved.
thawedtheorc Jan 21st 2012 4:53AM
Define greed.
I hate when words like that are used to bash a company.
Capitalism is not evil. Evil capitalism is evil.
Al Jan 21st 2012 9:52AM
Unchecked capitalism is evil.. but then, unchecked anything usually is.
Killik Jan 21st 2012 12:39PM
I wish it was the olden days, when Blizzard spent years and millions of dollars developing a game, with no thought whatsoever of making any money off of it.