Why we need difficult raid encounters

Welcome back again, raiders. Last session, we discussed those things that make a raid fun. Fun, as with many subjects, is a highly personal experience, and the simple matter is that not everyone finds even the concept of raiding itself very fun. This week, I want to continue with that discussion but in a different topic of course. Fun is merely a single part of raiding; another side of it is difficulty.
Difficulty comes in many shapes and sizes, not all of which are exclusive to one another. Further, difficulty often gets a rather tough rap in terms of how it influences a player's experience. Often, when we hear the word difficulty, we think of bosses that are just downright annoyingly hard. We envision these impossible encounters that act as roadblocks toward progression that end up only frustrating raiders. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Why we need difficult encounters
Challenging encounters are essential to a good raid -- there's simply no way around it. Were every encounter the same tank and spank or even built around the same basic movement mechanics, then raiding as a whole would quickly become boring and entirely unsustainable. Engaging players, forcing them to spend time and effort to down an encounter ... That's part of what raiding is all about.
Keep in mind that what is challenging for one fraction of the playerbase may not be for another. I fully admit that I'm a part of the upper crust of raiders. While I no longer raid with the hardcore crowd that pushes for world firsts with every new tier, I still do contend with hard modes and generally clear most content before the next comes out. This puts my perspective a little apart from that of most others, and I fully admit to that. Still, everyone does enjoy something of a challenge.
Numerical difficulty
The most basic type of difficulty that you can work into an encounter is raw numerical difficulty. Personally, I consider this to be the lazy type of challenge to add into a fight, but that doesn't mean that it is entirely without merit. Numerical difficulty is merely the pure output requirements of an encounter. Generally, this comes in the form of DPS requirements, such as what you see with Patchwerk, although that doesn't always have to be the case. Constant, powerful AoE can make for a healing-intensive encounter, and certainly these types of fights crop up from time to time as well.
As I said, while I consider these fights to be lacking in imagination, they do have their place. Patchwerk, as always, is the prime example of this. While there have been several pure tank-and-spank encounters prior to Patchwerk, he fully embodied the concept. No raid movement, no raid damage, no tank swapping, nothing but pure, stand-still damage dealing. These encounters are great every now and again to offer up a testing ground for players, a measure by which they can pit themselves against each other.
The problem comes when there's one every raiding tier. It gets rather droll to reference the "Patchwerk of this tier" every single time.
Mechanical difficulty
The second type of encounter difficulty is mechanical. This type of fight revolves around various non-combat-related actions to make an encounter hard. A wide number of things can fall within this category, whether it be heavy movement, debuff juggling, add control, or pretty much anything that you can think of. It's rather a catch-all of encounter types, but it's that variety that holds everything together.
Keep in mind that most encounters borrow a little bit from everything. Ultraxion is a good example of how this is done. Despite being the Patchwerk of Dragon Soul, it still has some mechanical aspects. There's the debuff, the one-shot ability, and then the healing crystals -- simple mechanics, sure, and obviously a numerically heavy fight, but it still borrows from everything.
Examining Kael'thas
Last time around, I headed off what I thought would be some of the more popular choices in hopes of directing the conversation more in other directions. This time, I have no such reservations. While there are without a doubt classic examples of difficult encounters -- pre-nerf Mu'ru, C'thun, Y'ogg 0 -- the community has such widely varied experiences and there are so many different challenges to choose from that pinning down a few specific examples of what makes a creatively, fun, challenging encounter can be a challenge. Instead, I rather think I'll put forth my favorite difficult fights and explain why I find them so. Again, I suspect that my list will be different from others, but that's the beauty of it all.
The first example for me is Kael'thas from Tempest Keep, of course. Part of what made the encounter so difficult was the exceptionally rigid tuning that went into it. The fight was literally nearly impossible without having a majority of the raid already well geared from Tempest Keep and Serpentshrine Cavern. Without that gear, raids simply did not have the DPS to meet the various timers they were forced into meeting.
Yet the numerical challenge of the encounter was only half the battle, as the fight itself involved so many different facets all going on at once. Mechanically, Kael'thas was just a brilliant fight -- starting out slow with the single adds, then the weapons, followed by all the adds at once ... Sheerly brilliant. The fact that the advisors were not traditional tank targets made it all the better. One was ranged tanked, one not tanked at all, the other probably handled by a DPS; it was thrilling.
Yet that was only half the encounter. Needing to use the weapons you'd previously defeated in order to counter Kael'thas' abilities was amazingly fun. It was slightly disappointing that only warriors had the required talents to effectively tank Kael'thas, but that was more due to the design of the time, not the encounter itself. Still, I feel that Kael'thas really stands out as one of the most challenging yet fun encounters that Blizzard has designed.
Examining Sartharion
Sartharion takes second place, though I feel that perhaps it is an unfair assessment of the encounter. The base encounter itself was rather on the bland side. Lava walls were neat, but from a DPS perspective, that's all there was to it. The adds were somewhat interesting, but I found their interaction with the lava walls to be more annoying than engaging.
What sold the encounter was really the way in which the hard mode was handled: three different drakes with different abilities and different passive effects that fly in at different times. It was glorious.
On its own, the encounter was just far too basic for my tastes (and rather lightly tuned, too), but even attempting it with even two drakes up changed everything. The drakes as adds on their own would have been enough to turn the encounter into a challenging mess, but toss in the abilities that they added to it and suddenly you're on an entirely different field. Dodging void zones, jumping into a different phase to slaughter eggs ... It changes everything for the better.
So there are my two favorite challenging fights. What are yours?
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Filed under: Raiding, Ready Check (Raiding)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Ayane Jan 20th 2012 6:07PM
Oh yes, I think that hard raids, still need to exist in the game. WOW has so many challenge levels now ,that it would be wrong, to ignore the hard mode crowd....and very unfair.
However, in regards to the old raids, I think that Blizzard should find some time, and resources, to have them re-tolled for the LFR. Perhaps then people, can get a taste of raiding, at a bit earlier level (60+). Then if they wish to, they can pursue the harder modes with a professional guild.
When everyone is happy...then the game is happy. ^_^
Shirubia Jan 20th 2012 6:26PM
Without a dobout, Yogg-Saron with 0 lights takes the place as my favorite difficult fight. It not only deals with dps and healing management, but also with the Sanity counter. If you reach 0, game over.
Second difficult would be Molten Core Ragnaros... Probably a bit biased, but that was the first epic raid boss I fought back in Vanilla. Blackwing Lair Nefarian was also entertaining, with the class call twist and the first phase not dealing with him at all, but killing his minions... only for them to come back at the third phase.
Ragnaros from Firelands is at the moment the hardest boss I have encountered since Yogg 0, in wrath. The rest of the Dragon Soul bosses pale in difficult comparision
Kram Jan 20th 2012 6:33PM
Now there's an idea. Raid finder for leveling toons at levels that wouldn't require retuning the old raids. 58-62 for the 60 raids. 68-72 for the 70 raids, etc... Could be easily implemented without a lot of rework... Gives a chance to see that content to new folks...
Thoughts?
Peebers Jan 21st 2012 1:06AM
I'm down! I'd expand your lvls a lil 58-65 for 60s... so on. I wouldn't lock high lvls out of Qing but I'd give a roll bonus for being lvl appropriate.
win?
DarkWalker Jan 21st 2012 7:24AM
Another idea: a LFR for old raids that, if the character is already overleveling the raid, allows the player to "borrow" a proper level character with adequate gear for the raid he is queuing for.
Yet another idea for old raids: add to them a solo/small group "RTS minigame" version where one or more players control a whole NPC raid group, with simplified abilities, and tries to clear the content.
Blizzard has a lot of old content that most players never saw. Some of it really good, and meaningful for the world's story. I would love seeing them added back in a way that is both challenging and fun (as opposed to just going back while ridiculously oveleveling and overgearing it and one-shotting everything, like we do nowadays).
zEagleEye` Jan 20th 2012 6:38PM
You may want to read the blog the "Greedy Goblin" to compare notes and perspectives.
http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/
For example -
http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2012/01/dancing-causes-yelling-berating-and.html
DragonFireKai Jan 20th 2012 8:11PM
Gevlon's approach to mechanics in raids is completely flawed and willfully ignorant of the cross polinization of mechanics between encounters. He apparently forgets how to step out of a void zone on Shannox just because it uses a different graphic than it did on Kel'thuzad. Teaching people how to handle mechanics is no more difficult than teaching them how to execute a proper rotation. He's just unwilling to hash through other player's UIs in order to teach them. Someone can't find where a debuff is? Tell them where to look. Someone's not getting out of void zones in time? The void zones are on a timer, give them a countdown to when it spawns. Cataclysm's mechanics have been, by and large, direct copies of mechanics from previous expansions. For the rank and file raider, the only new thing that has been implemented is the extra action button, which is used in two fights, and finkle's gas in Chimaeron. Everything else is a mechanic that raiders conquered in previous tiers, and should be able to conquer in the current tier. Gevlon's raid group's struggles stem directly from his failure as a leader, his unwillingness to find solutions to problems that don't involve multiple interations on a target dummy.
This post was written back in firelands, when Gevlon was the peak of his Anti-"Dance" foaming, it's still relevant.
http://childrenofwrath.blogspot.com/2011/10/cake-is-lie-dance-is-cake.html
rhorle Jan 20th 2012 6:40PM
Does a game need Challenging encounters? Yes. Does the game need difficulty encounters? No.You can make something be challenging while not requiring it to be "hard", but it takes a bit of design skill to get the balance right. Blizzard has been getting closer and closer to this line with every new tier of raiding they release.
Mal Jan 20th 2012 6:52PM
Raiding difficult encounters is plenty fun.
When you have a team that knows what they're doing, can communicate well, and generally works together.
How often does that happen these days as compared to precious expansions?
Mal Jan 20th 2012 6:53PM
*previous
Ninerva Jan 20th 2012 6:53PM
Mimiron. Firefighter. 'nuff said.
Pazazu Jan 22nd 2012 2:44PM
Even in ICC25 gear, Firefighter was no joke.
Nadia Jan 20th 2012 7:05PM
I loved the old Nefarian encounter in Blackwing Lair.
The events that were specific to particular classes and the things you had to do to compensate for them kept everyone on their toes.
Come to think of it, I liked a lot of the fights in there. Vaelastraz and Chromaggus were pretty awesome too.
pace9 Jan 20th 2012 7:24PM
As a practicing altaholic, I must voice my opinion about the low level raid finder idea. DO IT!! It would be a way for people like me, people who never raided before wrath dropped, to experience the content we so desperately want to see.
Picture this: You're leveling your monk a year from now. As you ding 80 in Icecrown, your mind turns toward Hyjal. BUT then you realize that you never killed the LK. As urgent as the battle against Deathwing is, someone needs to stop Arthas! That's when it hits you. You need to farm some Justice and buy some t10. Once you hit the ilvl requirement, it's off into the first section of ICC. As you clear each section, the next opens up. Finally, after weeks sitting at level 80, you set out to kill the Arthas. As you want upon is wasted corpse, you turn you attention to Hyjal where The Kingslayer is desperately needed in the fight against The Destoryer.
(of course, blizz would need to ban cata lvl gear from the ICC raid finder. Thats like trading Steelix to someone with red version.)
As far as I am aware, there are only 3 ways that this old raid content could be experienced without resorting to using max level toons. Of the 3, only 1 is in game, and that method is remarkable difficult: guilds for non-max level raiding. The other 2 methods would be the raid finder and Vanilla/BC/WRATH/CATA/future expansion servers.
Blizzard has stated many times that they don't want to create time machine servers and that players wouldn't use them anyway. Quite frankly, I agree 100%. No one would want to spend all that time leveling up a new toon and even if they did it would be boring and people would leave the servers. And even if that wasn't a good enough reason, I also agree with blizzard's position that WoW is meant to evolve and change; creating a time machine server would be counter to the very nature of an MMORPG.
So the best solution that would make the customers happy and comply with Blizzard's position is raid finder for low levels. Granted, a fair amount of tuning would need to be done. The question of whether a raid finder version should be created for each fight would arise. I think it could be a good idea. It would preserve the value of having killed Arthas for those who did it before, and yet give a chance to everyone who didn't have the pleasure. (and just think about the new colors of raid finder t10 for mogging!)
pace9 Jan 20th 2012 7:30PM
Further to that, I think monks would been to be able to share druid their gear and DKs would need to be able to share pre-t7 warrior gear. That or Blizzard could create their gear by copying similar items from druids for monks and paladins for dk, recoloring the gear and modifying the stats a bit, and creating the drops for raid finder version only.
BTW sorry for taking this so off topic! I just saw the post above and couldn't help myself. And, in my defense, if the lower level raid finder was implemented, I could let you know what my favorite encounters from pre-BC and BC were.
pace9 Jan 20th 2012 7:33PM
edit: First sentence should be "...monks would need to be able to share druid tier gear..."
DragonFireKai Jan 20th 2012 7:59PM
Hard Mode Mimiron is still, in my opinion, the finest fight from a tanking pespective that Blizzard ever created.
Pyromelter Jan 21st 2012 4:36AM
Figured I'd put this reply here, totally agree with you and the other poster who mentioned Firefighter, plus I would put that in a tie with Lich King Heroic. Both fights give you that epic sense of accomplishment. A DPS check plus a mechanics check plus a tanking check plus a healing check - now that is epic, difficult raid design.
Revynn Jan 20th 2012 8:05PM
Unfortunately, I started playing early in Wrath and, since my guild at the time couldnt field an effective 10M) didn't really get to start seeing hard fights while they were relevant until I changed guilds at the end of Ulduar and still wasn't geared and skilled enough to be brought into progression until we started working on ToGC. So fights like Mu'ru, C'Thun, Kael'thas, Yogg-0, Sarth 3D . . . All before my time and I only saw them after we could overpower them with gear or levels.
My guild has also had a long-standing problem of always having 3 or 4 of "those guys". You know, the tank with Taunt in his rotation or the warlock in ICC 25 gear that does 4K DPS, the healer who spends more time complaining then healing, the melee who dies to Every. Single. Voidzone. Looking back now, I'm finding that most of our really big stumbling block encounters (25m Putricide, H-Ragnaros, Sindragosa) all could have been a lot easier without "those guys".
DragonFireKai Jan 20th 2012 8:09PM
Gevlon's approach to mechanics in raids is completely flawed and willfully ignorant of the cross polinization of mechanics between encounters. He apparently forgets how to step out of a void zone on Shannox just because it uses a different graphic than it did on Kel'thuzad. Teaching people how to handle mechanics is no more difficult than teaching them how to execute a proper rotation. He's just unwilling to hash through other player's UIs in order to teach them. Someone can't find where a debuff is? Tell them where to look. Someone's not getting out of void zones in time? The void zones are on a timer, give them a countdown to when it spawns. Cataclysm's mechanics have been, by and large, direct copies of mechanics from previous expansions. For the rank and file raider, the only new thing that has been implemented is the extra action button, which is used in two fights, and finkle's gas in Chimaeron. Everything else is a mechanic that raiders conquered in previous tiers, and should be able to conquer in the current tier.
This post was written back in firelands, when Gevlon was the peak of his Anti-"Dance" foaming, it's still relevant.
http://childrenofwrath.blogspot.com/2011/10/cake-is-lie-dance-is-cake.html