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1-30-2012 @ 4:36PM
Note - I am not a raider and have not been one. This is how I see things, I speak for nobody but myself.I know at least one angry commenter (looking at you DragonFireKai) will down-vote me and lash me for bringing an "ignorant" into the discussion, BUT you may want to compare notes with the "Greedy Goblin" (http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/) who wrote multiple times about the "dancing" in WoW.I think that this column (allison's) and the "originator" (Klepsacovic's) point to the key issue, and that is the cost of failure and its consequences.If in the past a "weaker" player died but the raid killed the boss, the main punishment was the "weaker" player (and the extra load for the ones who carried him/her).If now a "weaker" player can cause a wipe then the "better" players would logically oppose bringing the "weaker" player in.I'm told that the game used to be divided into Raiders ("l33t") and the rest of us. This was changed somewhat over time. Now it looks like the movement is back the other way.If the "l33ts" want to be left alone in their sandbox it's their right.It is also the right of others to voice other opinions.I know I went a bit overboard here, but it's because of some intolerance I have noticed.
1-30-2012 @ 8:16PM
My, you sure took it personally that I disagreed with a blog someone else wrote. I take fault with Gevlon's theories because he's claiming that this "dance" is something new to Cataclysm. It's not. Other people have mentioned Gorefiend as a prime example, but raiding is and has always been rife with them. Person selected at random fails to move on Geddon? Wipe.Priest healed the tank during a Class call on Nefarian? Wipe.A person who was randomly selected to go into C'thun's stomach screws up and dies to digestion? Wipe. Someone dropped the injection on Grobbulus in the wrong place? Wipe. One person fails to properly track their debuff on Thaddius? Wipe. Chained frost tombs on Kel'thuzad? Wipe.Screwed up the beams on Netherspite? Wipe.Moved during Flame Wreath on Aran? Wipe."that guy" got picked by Bloodboil? Wipe. In the past, if a weaker player failed at those mechanics, the raid wiped. A raid was justified in being opposed to bringing a player who chronically failed at living bombs into Molten Core, the very first raid instance. This has persisted through every raid instance in the history of the game. Gevlon is just seeing it now because prior to Wrath, he was an auction house kingpin who didn't raid. Then he bought a spot in Windwalkers, a guild that was working through Hard Modes in Ulduar. He raided with them periodically until ToGC, when they could no longer afford to carry him. At that point, he created "Ungeared" where he took a bunch of undergeared players and raided ICC10 with the 30% buff, and made it through 8/13 normal mode. When Cataclysm came out, he putzed around trying to make groups to rejuvenate dead factions on lopsided servers. When he decided to get back into raiding, he tried making "The PuG", which is pretty much exactly what it sounds like. The PuG got their teeth kicked in because it had no standards, it didn't use any voice communication and had no set attendance, and there was neither 24 other high end players to carry him as happened in mid-Wrath, nor a 30% buff to boost him as there was in ICC. Every tier, Gevlon ran a different social experiment. There's nothing wrong with that, however, he's failed to see how the constraints of his experiments have altered his perception of the raiding experience. He has no idea what it's like to actually raid. He refuses to take the steps that would make his raiding more successful, instead he foists his failures onto the head of Blizzard, claiming that they changed things, when in fact, they had not.
1-30-2012 @ 11:28PM
Totally with DFK on this one. These sort of mechanics have been in raiding from the start, and raids have always been hesitant to bring people they weren't sure we're up to snuff. I only started raiding in bc, and didn't get past t4, but those mechanics were there; you put trustworthy people on cubes in magtheridon's lair, because if they screwed up, you wiped. Same deal with beam soakers on netherspite. I can't even begin to count the number of times a new raider would come in on shade of aran, and move during flame wreath. Maybe it's elitist to expect people to be able to do this sort of thing, but i don't think that's a bad thing. It's the pinnacle of the game, it's SUPPOSED to be hard. Play any other game since pong, and it gets harder as the game goes on. And I'm saying this as someone who has only done ds rf in this expansion, so hardly the upper echelons of wow.
2-02-2012 @ 4:48PM
@DFKI don't care what you take fault with Gevlon - it's between you and Gevlon.Instead of ranting about Gevlon please READ what you answer to (what I wrote).I wrote that there is another opinion somehwere in the field - oh my god what a sin, but I refuse to apologize for that.Instead of answering the issues you tried to show that Gevlon is not entitled to opinions since he requires "being carried". I don't give a flying you-know-what about Gevlon's history and ability.If you read the posting that I answered to AND the posting it referenced to (Allison's and Klepsacovic's) you see consistency that happens to disagree with you.Are you saying that those posts are also out of the blue and the posters have no idea what they are talking about?Is everybody who disagrees with you a moron (or a Moron?) or is that "title" reserved to people you feel you can offend?I don't care what you think of me or what I say, but if you insist on telling me how wrong I am please at least READ what I actually say first and acknowledge that not all the opinions in the world that you disagree with are wrong.For some reason I thought I was living in "the land of the free" with "free speech".Please note that I am not telling you what you cannot say (you try to tell me not to reference a blog) - I am trying to tell other people that there are different points of view.As you note - I stated by stating I am not a raider.As a non-raider I can read what you write and what others write and decide what I like and what I don't and it makes no difference to me since I am not a raider.Am I stepping on your (un)holy turf by voicing ANYTHYING other than quoting you?hmmm I'm starting to get that feeling.Bottom line - if you disagree with the view that the cost of raider's mistakes went up, why don't you take it up with Aliison and others? Because you cannot bully her or because you know she'll cut you down to size? You may even be right and the price of mistakes has NOT gone up, but the way you come across is not really condusive to a discussion (and the difference between a discussion and an argument is that in a discussion people actually LISTEN to the other people).Please answer to issues, not to a person's background.To everybosy else - sorry about the rant, but I feel it had to be said./getting off the soapbox
2-03-2012 @ 4:53AM
Wow, that's a garish amount of caps you used there, I guess you feel very strongly about this. Let's make this clear, I'm not trying to bully you, or anyone else on this site. I'm simply pointing out flaws in people's reasoning.I did read your comment. You said: "If in the past a "weaker" player died but the raid killed the boss, the main punishment was the "weaker" player (and the extra load for the ones who carried him/her).If now a "weaker" player can cause a wipe then the "better" players would logically oppose bringing the "weaker" player in."Which is something that is not true, and I cited examples of encounters dating back to the first raid instance in WoW that illustrated the same design elements as the current tier. As for the reason why I brought up Gevlon's raiding history, is because it's relevant to the discussion. He was arguing from a fundamentally flawed position because he didn't account for the impact that his own social experiments were having upon his raiding experience. It's like forgetting to tare your scale, and then using the flawed reading as proof that something's heavier than it used to be.I think you need a refresher on the difference between a fact and an opinion. "I think raiding should be easier." is an opinion. It is an opinion that people are free to disagree with. "raids didn't use to wipe to mechanics like this." is a false statement, one that can be disproved with a cursory analysis of previous raid encounters. If you think raids should be tuned easier, that's an opinion that I don't agree with, but it's a valid opinion to hold. If you truly think what I quoted from your earlier post, then you're wrong. There is a difference between the two stances. You can reference whatever you want, but if the facts are wrong, then they're wrong, no matter who's saying them.As for calling people Morons? I didn't. That's more Gevlon's style. You know, the M&S that he's always denigrating.And a quick heads up. It takes more than one person to down vote a post into oblivion. If your posts are getting blacked out, it's not just me who's disagreeing with you. I might be the one who's most vocal, but I get one vote, just like everyone else.
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