Ol' Grumpy and the specter of pointless elitism
Ol' Grumpy (that's me) has a bit of a problem. He's started tanking for pickup groups lately. I guess technically that means I have two problems, but doctors probably can prescribe some medication or something for white-hot eruptions of seething rage. I'm starting to think Neltharion was the tank for the dragon aspects' regular 5-man group.
However, my molten cauldron of hate masquerading as a soul isn't what I came to talk to you about today. No, I'm actually here to explain what pointless elitism is and why it's actually bad. I'll use an example from a recent 5-man. I had signed up to tank because I wanted the goody bag of potent bribery. I admit it, I'm weak. I zoned into End Time, said hello to the mostly uncommunicative group, and started charging things, as I am wont to do. Things died, we progressed, no one pulled aggro by DoTing a mob while I was mounted and on the other side of the map -- it was pretty much ideal for a pickup.
Then we got to Sylvanas, killed her, and as someone looted, two of the DPSers begin savaging the third for doing less than they. I look at Skada and saw that all three of them were floating between 11k and 14k DPS overall, with this one player sinking to 7k on Sylv. They were all geared about the same -- a couple of HoT pieces -- so clearly, they were all there because they needed the gear.
I even typed "Shut up, you're all doing about the same, he's fine," but the argument became insults and name-calling. Then the vote kick was initiated as soon as the game would allow it; then the supposed bad DPSer was gone, even though I voted no. As you can imagine, I was not pleased. (I'm often not pleased; it doesn't mean you're psychic.) Not even my desire for my bribe bag was enough to prevent a maelstrom of invective and a dropped group.
The reasons that this enraged me are:
Now, we all know there are players who do abysmally low DPS, so low you don't even understand how it can be that low. We're talking the mage in full 378/384 gear doing 3k DPS. Is he on autofollow with a drinky bird hitting a button? Is that rogue asleep? Is that hunter using throwing weapons? What's happening here? We all get irritated about carrying these people to loot. That's fine, and in cases like that, sure, go ahead and initiate a vote kick. I'm not arguing that every pickup group should be treated like your best friends. I'm arguing for civility -- and more importantly, common sense.
I've seen groups fall apart because a player doing 17k DPS seems unable to stop hectoring the players doing 12k to 15k DPS as to why they suck so bad. A 2k DPS difference, and suddenly you're the king of all WoW and we're blessed to be in your presence. This is, in its way, some magnificent horse crap, but it's still pathetic and sad. I know a ret pally who before yesterday's bug could easily do 50k DPS sustained, and you're bragging about 17k on a boss fight and using it to make the guy who only did 2k less DPS than you feel bad? It's ludicrous, pointless, and absurd, and it kills perfectly functional groups even if people don't drop just to get away from you.
Now, a lot of you are probably saying, "But I would never do that, Ol' Grumpy," and the thing is, I know that. I'm glad most of you aren't horrible people, like the people in the other three PUGs I ran this week. Most of you are great, but the concept of my writing an entire Ol' Grumpy Appreciates Good Players post just seems wrong. In the end, it's good players who make me so angry when jerks show up, because they ruin everything and then I don't get my bribe bag. I really wanted my bribe bag. The ones I did get had snakes in them.
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm has destroyed Azeroth as we know it; nothing is the same! In WoW Insider's Guide to Cataclysm, you can find out everything you need to know about WoW's third expansion, from leveling up a new goblin or worgen to breaking news and strategies on endgame play.
However, my molten cauldron of hate masquerading as a soul isn't what I came to talk to you about today. No, I'm actually here to explain what pointless elitism is and why it's actually bad. I'll use an example from a recent 5-man. I had signed up to tank because I wanted the goody bag of potent bribery. I admit it, I'm weak. I zoned into End Time, said hello to the mostly uncommunicative group, and started charging things, as I am wont to do. Things died, we progressed, no one pulled aggro by DoTing a mob while I was mounted and on the other side of the map -- it was pretty much ideal for a pickup.
Then we got to Sylvanas, killed her, and as someone looted, two of the DPSers begin savaging the third for doing less than they. I look at Skada and saw that all three of them were floating between 11k and 14k DPS overall, with this one player sinking to 7k on Sylv. They were all geared about the same -- a couple of HoT pieces -- so clearly, they were all there because they needed the gear.
I even typed "Shut up, you're all doing about the same, he's fine," but the argument became insults and name-calling. Then the vote kick was initiated as soon as the game would allow it; then the supposed bad DPSer was gone, even though I voted no. As you can imagine, I was not pleased. (I'm often not pleased; it doesn't mean you're psychic.) Not even my desire for my bribe bag was enough to prevent a maelstrom of invective and a dropped group.
The reasons that this enraged me are:
- If the group is clearing the content, the DPS meter is completely irrelevant for a 5-man. DPS meters (especially ones with parsing that can tell you more than just raw numbers) are useful for raiding and can even be invaluable in determining what's going on in a boss attempt. Using them to mock and belittle strangers you just met in a 5-man is not their intended use, nor is it a good use of them. Share it with your friends -- use it to feel quietly smug about how awesome you are all you like -- but don't bring it up in party. If people want to see how amazing your DPS is, they can consult their own meters.
- Proper execution of basic mechanics is more important in a 5-man. Frankly, I'm OK if the arms warrior is only putting out 12k DPS if he doesn't break CC with Bladestorm, doesn't stand in the black ooze from Sylvanas and die, and hits interrupts to help out on Tyrande. Does the hunter know how to trap the caster dragonkin in the packs before Murozond, and can he use Camo properly to go hit all of the staff fragments in Azure? That guy's a keeper, even if his DPS is low. Gear can improve his DPS, but it can't teach a mage how to run over a Flarecore.
- It makes the specific times when DPS matters harder to emphasize. If the group can't kill Murozond because everyone is doing lower DPS than is necessary (and that would mean really poor use of the Hourglass), then I need to be able to tell them this. If you're running off your mouth all PUG long about how awful Joe the Mage is, it dilutes the effect. I had a End Time run where the DPS players were not capable of killing Muro, and so I arranged with the DPS DK to switch roles with him -- and we killed him. I wasn't rude or condescending, and he wasn't upset or defensive, as we both realized his DPS was low because he needed the gear the instance has to offer. It wasn't an ego issue.

I've seen groups fall apart because a player doing 17k DPS seems unable to stop hectoring the players doing 12k to 15k DPS as to why they suck so bad. A 2k DPS difference, and suddenly you're the king of all WoW and we're blessed to be in your presence. This is, in its way, some magnificent horse crap, but it's still pathetic and sad. I know a ret pally who before yesterday's bug could easily do 50k DPS sustained, and you're bragging about 17k on a boss fight and using it to make the guy who only did 2k less DPS than you feel bad? It's ludicrous, pointless, and absurd, and it kills perfectly functional groups even if people don't drop just to get away from you.
Now, a lot of you are probably saying, "But I would never do that, Ol' Grumpy," and the thing is, I know that. I'm glad most of you aren't horrible people, like the people in the other three PUGs I ran this week. Most of you are great, but the concept of my writing an entire Ol' Grumpy Appreciates Good Players post just seems wrong. In the end, it's good players who make me so angry when jerks show up, because they ruin everything and then I don't get my bribe bag. I really wanted my bribe bag. The ones I did get had snakes in them.
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm has destroyed Azeroth as we know it; nothing is the same! In WoW Insider's Guide to Cataclysm, you can find out everything you need to know about WoW's third expansion, from leveling up a new goblin or worgen to breaking news and strategies on endgame play.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Cataclysm







Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Revnah Feb 2nd 2012 7:12PM
Hear, hear!
ao.dom Feb 2nd 2012 7:14PM
100% agreement..
Brett Porter Feb 2nd 2012 7:18PM
I had a similar experience in my first heroic Hour of Twilight 5 man earlier today.
My druid is a bear tank and he just hit 353 by picking up the T12 chestpiece, thus now giving him a 2p bonus. I queued with a friend, as I was a little worried about going by myself.
We got End Time (of course, since my first one in the new 5s) and proceeded to kill Sylvanas then Baine. It wasn't until after the two trash packs in the final section with Murozond that the healer, who I guess hadn't looked at me at all this entire time? Anyways, he mentioned something along the lines of "lol my pally tank has more hp unbuffed than you do now!"
So all I did was ":)" and went a long with my business of 1 shotting Murozond with the group. My frustration is, what the hell was the point of saying that? Do people really expect only high end raiders with iLevel 400 to be running the dungeons? We never wiped, and I never lost aggro. True, my gear may be at the lower end of the dungeon, but that's why we're running it, right?
My friend said I did well, and I felt pretty good about the run, but that really nagged on me.
TL;DR: Say something nice, or nothing at all.
ahsanali Feb 2nd 2012 7:32PM
You could take it as a compliment too - that you were doing so well that he was surprised to see how entry level your gear was. :)
Nothing really offensive about what he said, I think you read more into it than he meant.
ILuvFerrets53187 Feb 2nd 2012 7:46PM
Whenever I see people making snide comments about tank HP, I calmly point out that secondary stats have far more value than straight stamina these days. Avoidance and mitigation are way more important than merely having the health to soak up repeated hits (and valuable healer mana).
Knowing how to play is a lot more valuable than simply having a high ilvl.
Evelinda Feb 2nd 2012 9:41PM
Sometimes these things can go both ways. I remember healing a run of hour of twilight, halfway through the tank says to me "I had some doubts about you, but you're healing this fine". I presume its because i was using am ilvl 318 helm (and still am; curse the world for not dropping a better hat). Well, i got really defensive, and started laying out all these explanations about why there was no need to worry (my average is 371! Everything else is epic! I've run this a million times! I have all four healing classes at 85!). He just told me to relax, that he was just saying I was doing a good job.
Tldr version, sometimes people overreact to criticism, and that can make these situations worse.
Wiedmaier Feb 2nd 2012 9:51PM
Amen! I avoided using i378 dps prices and stuck with a 316 belt and a couple of green 333s to maximize avoidance (I averaged like 359) and got yelled at by a healer who wasn't having mana issues in the least for not having copious amounts of stamina. When I explained I was using avoidance gear instead of dps gear in those slots, I got vote kicked. The run was fine up till that point. It turned me off to tanking for weeks.
SamLowry Feb 2nd 2012 11:07PM
Seems like some people just need something to bitch about. If all is going well, keep your mouth shut and finish it.
Otherwise, you get /ignore. That means you, too, Mr. Recount Poster.
musicchan Feb 2nd 2012 11:07PM
Just to share stories:
My badly-geared rogue and my husband's okay-geared warrior were in a Well of Eternity group. I had just BARELY qualified for those heroics (without cheating, aka PVP gear) so I knew my damage was probably sub par. I figured my husband's warrior was probably doing okay. Anyway, we were doing fine. No wipes, everything dying, we kill the second boss and suddenly there's a vote kick for my husband's warrior with the line "crap dps" for the reason. I said no, of course, but was outvoted.
I proceeded to ask them why they kicked my husband (though I didn't tell them it was my husband) and the entire rest of the instance was us arguing about why they should or shouldn't have kicked someone who was doing a good job. At one point, one of the guys even said "Yeah, should have kicked you instead" which sort of defeated the point anyway.
I mean, c'mon people! EVERYTHING DIED AND WE DIDN'T WIPE. What's the point of kicking someone? GEEBUS.
Also, what's worse is voting 'yes' just to go along with the group and not caring if there's really a good reason to kick someone.
freebeatfly Feb 3rd 2012 12:07PM
Funny! Just today I had a similar experience on my warlock in End Time; I had actually accidentally queued for it (I had an epic drop from ZG in my bags when I queued), so I was around 350 ilevel. I get a group that starts by being douchey to begin with ("Pull now or I leave")... so we get to Sylvanas... and in the first 5 seconds the feral dps dies to purple fire. We continue the fight, but the dps wasn't enough to kill the closing circle mobs (never seen this happen before on my other characters, so I don't know if its ONLY my fault).
Of course, I start getting abuse as I was doing around 10k (compared to their 15k). Admittedly low, but hey, I didn't fail on easy mechanics.
So meh. I got rid of that pesky purple and am now back to normal Cata heroics :P
With roles reversed I had a hunter in my rogue's group doing 5k dps in Hour of Twilight, but the group quickly realised that he needed advice more than a kick so we carried him through. No wipes, no problem, and he actually got some gear in the end :).
Johnny.ramos1 Feb 2nd 2012 7:21PM
Matt, nice to hear you're venturing out there into the random dungeon environment. I hope one day I zone in and see you in there.
VSUReaper Feb 2nd 2012 7:25PM
This so many times over.
When I used to raid lead for a group of friends on an alt, I always emphasized that they did what they were supposed to do. DPS is important, but it can be fixed via gearing or rotation tweaking.
If someone is pulling a decent number, and obeying the fights mechanics, then fine.
The only time I kick is:
When a dps is pulling for me, and I ask him to stop, and he ignores me.
Someone goes afk for long periods of time
Someone is auto attacking/wanding/doing stupid low dps.
Tortheldrin Feb 2nd 2012 9:09PM
Ysera- Resto druid
Malygos- Arcane Mage
Neltharion- Prot Warrior
Nozdormu- Assassination Rogue
Alexstrasza- Fire Mage
monotype Feb 2nd 2012 7:27PM
Okay, so if Nel was the tank, what kind was he? And what does that make the others? Maly and Ysera are easy enough, I suppose, as mage and druid respectively, but what were Noz and Alex?
And IAWTC. I wish people would get that the vast majority of the time, DPS doesn't matter. Especially in the 4.3 heroics, where there are _so many_ damage buffs flying around, like Illidan, the hourglass, or magistrike blade. Sure, you can do 100k dps! ...on trash, if Illidan Stormrage is there jacking up your DPS.
Matthew Rossi Feb 2nd 2012 7:42PM
I don't think Neltharion was any of our current classes: his earth warder nature seems more like a Runemaster style tank, drawing directly on the power of the elemental earth. But if I had to pick a class for him, Warrior seems most likely as he wasn't drawing on holy power, druidic shape changing or necromancy.
Ysera being the healer, we have Alex as a fire caster (so probably mage, she's not very warlocky) Malygos as an Arcane mage and Nozzy as a rogue using time travel to sneak behind folks, speed up his attacks, etc etc.
Imnick Feb 2nd 2012 7:59PM
I don't know, Alexstrasza could easily be the healer too as she has dominion over Life.
Everything that gets burned by Red Dragon flames in WoW tends to turn into flowers or plants, healing seems to be sort of her thing.
But then that doesn't leave much for Ysera to do either except sleep.
Maybe Alex is a Discipline-esque damage-dealing healer ;)
Sintraedrien Feb 2nd 2012 8:03PM
I would put Neltharion as a warrior, but I would call Alex as a priesty healer type ( lifebinder and all), and yes, Nozdormu as a rogue.
Sintra E'Drien of the Ebon Blade (on my stupid-phone)
monotype Feb 2nd 2012 8:07PM
I kind of desperately want to read about their dungeon finder shenanigans, now. "Ysera, are you asleep at your keyboard again? Some heals would be nice for a change. And ffs, Noz, stop trying to interrupt things before the mobs cast them -- seeing into the future doesn't mean that your timing is great, as Chromie can attest."
Shawn McNaughton Feb 2nd 2012 8:27PM
Neltharion was an old-school tank, so he was clearly a shaman tank.
Maly and Nozdormu are both mages. I can see ice/arcane or arcane/arcane. Nozdormu is clearly arcane due to the wibbly wobbly timey wimey aspect getting shoved on us now. (Double entaundre FTW!)
Ysera is likely a druid, but I see her as more of the Balance type.
Alex is the healer - but she's the one I can't figure a class for. Druid or shaman, but neither truly fits, now does it.
clundgren Feb 3rd 2012 5:03PM
Nelf was a Vanilla enhancement shaman tank!
No wonder he got so mad.