Drama Mamas: Choosing between raiding and friendships
by Robin Torres 
Feb 6th 2012 at 1:00PM
In the video above, Candace's friends are off having fun without her. Since she is unwilling to find her own fun, she takes a portal to Mars to hang out with strangers -- and breaks into song. There are parallels with this week's letter (except for the song part).
Hi Robin & Lisa,
I'm finally writing in with my own dilemma. Since I started playing this game in mid-Wrath, I've played with my girlfriend and our mutual friend. We have a strong bond and truly enjoy playing together, and GF and I have even met our friend IRL. In Wrath, I led our 10 man raid group, and we loved every minute of ICC. Once the Cataclysm was upon us, we expected to continue raiding. However, things rarely work out as planned, and we missed T11 completely, mostly due to the dissolution of our guild. Eventually I became frustrated with lack of progress and quit the game for a while.
When I came back, GF and friend had joined a very casual guild with little to no interest in raiding. I tried to convince them several times to leave the guild and start raiding again, but they claimed to not have enough time, didn't want to be on a strict raid schedule, and didn't want to lose exalted with guild. I left the guild by myself to try and join a raid team, but felt unmotivated to really follow through without them. After a couple of months I came back to the casual guild and leveled or geared alts in dungeon gear to bide the time and feel as if I had some sort of progression. However, raiding with friends is the most satisfying thing for me in WoW, and when I don't, I feel as though my time spent playing is wasted.
Since 4.3, things have been slightly better. The advent of Raid Finder is a band-aid to my long-festering wound; GF and friend are finally willing to raid again with me, and it has been going well. But for the past three weeks, no less than three strangers per raid have specifically singled me out in raid or in tells, astonished as to why I do so much DPS with such "terrible" Raid Finder gear, and shocked that I don't even raid on normal mode. After the third week of hearing the same thing from completely random people, it really pains me that anyone can see that we should be in a raiding guild. Ultimately, the problem hasn't really gone away
What can I do about the nagging feeling that we should be raiding? Should I separate from my friends, or quit WoW altogether if it's going to continue to be unsatisfying?
Thanks for any advice on this matter,
Stuck Between a Rock and a Saronite Boulder
Drama Mama Lisa: Stuck Between, the issue as I see it isn't tha -- wait a minute .... We've gotten off on the wrong foot here. You're not "Stuck Between." No, Stuck Between A Rock and a Saronite Boulder, the short form of your name is most definitely "Boulder" -- because boulder-headed is exactly what you're being right now.That nagging feeling that you should be raiding? Boulder, my dear, you are raiding right now. You wanted to be with your friends, in a raid, having fun. And you are! That nagging feeling isn't about what you're doing right now at all. It's about your ego.
Think about it: Life was hunky-dory and you were having fun with your friends, until players outside your circle commented on your low-status playstyle. Now you feel as if you're parading about with a neon XXX NELF N00BZ ALL NIGHT LONG CIALIS VIAGRA XXX sign over your head, with the whole realm pointing and snickering behind their hands.
And maybe they are. Does it really matter? What's the goal here? If it's playing with your friends, which is what you claim, then you're exactly where you wanted to be. Accept the compliments on your DPS with good grace and don't get sucked into the status wars.
On the other hand, if you can't let go of wanting to play in a way that your friends simply are no longer interested in, then yes, you're going to have to zip it up and get yourself into a raiding group. Then again, yes, you already tried that. Yes, it wasn't the same without your friends. Yes, this has all brought you back to this very spot.
So what's the thing causing your nagging feeling, both when you tried raiding on your own before and now? What's that subversive little voice whispering in your ear? Once you can roll that little pebble out the door, I have a feeling the rest of the landslide will roll aside and your path will be absolutely smooth and clear.
Drama Mama Robin: I think the solution to your problem is simple: Join a raiding guild and when you aren't raiding, have fun with your friends using the Raid Finder.That makes my answer rather short, though, so let me expound. I think it's really important to stress something that Lisa referred to in her response:
Your friends do not want to participate in progression raiding.
They have made that perfectly clear to you. Everyone should play this game to have fun. If they don't have fun raiding except on easy mode, then that is the only way they should raid. Just like on the playground, if The Spawn wants to play hide and seek and no one else wants to, she can't force her friends to do it. They have to come up with a game they all want to play, and she needs to find friends who like hide and seek as much as she does but at another time. Nagging them repeatedly to play the game that only she wants to play is going to mean loss of playmates for any game.
Furthermore, I'm a bit confused about something. When people compliment you on your raiding skills, how does that translate to all of you needing to be in a raiding guild? Logically speaking, I don't get where the "we" comes from.
If you join a raiding guild on your own and then Raid Finder it with your friends on off nights, I think one of three things will happen:
- You will have a great time, and your friends will be happy that you're not bugging them any more. Everyone will be happy.
- You will have a great time, and your friends will envy your gear and fun level. They'll also appreciate that you've stopped hounding them and will ask to join you. Everyone will be happy.
- You will feel unsatisfied because you can't have your friends and progressively raid with them too. Your friends will feel guilty, and will you continue to try to recruit them. Everyone will be unhappy.
So your action plan is to stop badgering your friends, get into a raiding guild, then schedule Raid Finder nights with your friends on off nights. Good luck!
Dodge the drama and become that player everyone wants in their group with a little help and insight from the Drama Mamas. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at robin@wowinsider.com. Read Robin's section of this post on how to get your letter answered and please remember that we cannot answer privately.Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
rukamich Feb 6th 2012 1:16PM
You guys nailed it: he needs to join a raiding guild.
This guy sounds selfish. Who is he to be saying that "we" should be raiding? HE wants to raid, his gf and friends do not, enough said.
Imagine years ago when we didn't have RealID or LFR...sheesh.
Kelly Feb 6th 2012 2:33PM
A very similar situation recently happened to me. During 4.2 I quit the raiding guild I was because I believe, "If you think you can do a better job than someone else, do it". So I started my own raiding guild.
5 months later, I had NO RAIDERS. In fact, I only had a few people in my guild.
I joined a pug one night and had a great time, and I remembered that I LOVE to raid, so I quickly spoke with them about joining their guild. Not only me, but I secured spots for some of my guildies as well.
After convincing (and it took some convincing) my guildies to disband the guild that we'd spent 5 months getting to level 6 (we're slow, leave us alone), I had an epiphany: I didn't want my guildies to leave the guild so that we could play together. I wanted them to leave so that I wouldn't feel guilty about "leaving them". In other words: I was being selfish (in case you're wondering how this case is similar).
I logged in, spoke with a guildie that I trusted the most, told him I would give him leadership of the guild to do with as he pleased.
They're still going. They've hit level 7 now (they have 3 active members), but they're happy. I have my 7 toons in the raiding guild, so I'm happy. Just goes to show you, sometimes, you just have to play the game you want to play and not worry about others around you
Shinae Feb 6th 2012 1:22PM
I have to disagree with Lisa's assertion that having a couiple friends with you in Raid Finder is the same thing as "raiding with friends." To me and probably to "Boulder," raiding with friends means raiding in a group made up entirely (or at least mostly) people you know. He might also miss being able to lead a raid, which no one can do in Raid Finder. ;)
Robin has a good way of explaining it. Since Boulder's GF and friend (GF&F) are not interested in normal raiding anymore, he'll have to make some new friends to really "raid with friends" again. At least the Raid Finder is there for something to do with his GF&F, and he should be glad he has that!
eel5pe Feb 6th 2012 2:24PM
Shinae I'm with you in disagreeing with Lisa- technically he IS raiding, but it's probably not the kind of raiding he's looking for. Doing LFR with 22 other strangers is definitely not the same as being in a regular raid group with a consistent body of players, and no I'm not talking about the quality of loot that drops. It's why people who claim "LFR killed raiding" are wrong- there's an irreplacable intimacy and comraderie you can only find in the stable roster associated with successful normal and heroic raiding. In LFR your group-mates are temporary and interchangable, and the comparable lack of challenge means that you don't form as strong a bond as you would if you were struggling through adversity (note that you probably don't remember all the LFGs where the run went smoothly, but you probably remember one or two runs where you wiped on a boss a few times and then finally pushed through and were successful).
Both mamas are right in the bottom line though- if your friends don't want to join a raid group, there's little you can do to change their minds. Sorry. Hope they change their minds down the road (especially as DS gets nerfed).
Revnah Feb 6th 2012 2:31PM
I was going to say that. Completely agree that a raid group is completely different than raiding *with* friends on Raid Finder, where there's no tactics discussions and no real progress, ever. Raid Finder is great, but in the long run it's no replacement.
DarkWalker Feb 6th 2012 1:28PM
One of the "risks" of implementing the LFR is that some players might cease trying to progress on Normal and scale down to just having fun in the easy LFR mode.
I'm not sure how many players feel like this, but I, for one, really dislike both repeatedly wiping due to some random stranger's failings, and feeling like I might be holding back an otherwise fine group. Given that my old guild's raiding group has broken apart, and the availability of the LFR, I'm not going to set foot back into Normal or Hard modes unless I get invited to some raiding group, with competent players, and the right mix for me between casualness and commitment; not a likely proposition at all.
I don't see this as a bad thing, though. Someone who is keeping to LFR by choice is most likely having more fun and/or slowing down his burnout rate. And if he gets the itch to try something harder, the Normal and Hard modes are there.
Kelly Feb 6th 2012 2:38PM
Please, no one get mad at me for this, but....
If you're a healer and want a friendly place to raid where we take it seriously, without taking it seriously (we make fun of each others' failings.... a lot, but we would still like to progress), my guild's alt-runs are a great place to hang out.
Nadia Feb 6th 2012 1:57PM
I have to wonder why he didn't try making friends in the raid team he joined.
He says the friend in the casual guild is someone he met in WoW first. Is he still open-minded enough to consider making new online friends who are already raiding with 8 or 9 people and just need 1 more?
Marcosius Feb 6th 2012 1:45PM
"This video is unavailable in your location." Damn juropions, don't you watch our american cartoons!
Jon Feb 6th 2012 1:53PM
I started a casual guild last year. As it grew, the cries of "we should be raiding" could be heard daily. My response? If you want to raid, go raid! Makes more sense to join an actual raid guild than try to get people who don't want to raid on your raid team.
Leviathon Feb 6th 2012 1:58PM
Honestly it may sound mean to say this...but if you want to raid it may be best to leave your friends and go to a raiding guild. So many of my friends that I have seen quit over the years quit because they burnt themselves out or gave themselves nothing to do since they refused to move on to another guild or server. In the end if you aren't having fun you're just going to end up wanting to quit anyway.
terph Feb 6th 2012 10:32PM
Yes, a thousand times yes.
I had a nice little group of RL friends who raided. They stopped in Cataclysm. We weren't the best group, and there was a lot of carrying. But I enjoyed playing with my friends. I waited for friends to come back and raid with me. I was very unhappy, ready to quit.
2 months ago, joined a good progression guild. I'm happy, love my guild and have made new friends. I still miss my bf and a couple of my other close friends, and I hope I can sweet-talk them into my new group when they play again. But WoW is fun again. And I love progressing at a good speed, I love having great gear, and I'm really glad I changed over. I wish I had done it months ago.
And although LFR is a great thing for many situations, I would not have found it satisfying if that was my only raiding option either. If you enjoy challenge and working as a team, LFR does not provide. Playing with friends makes it more tolerable, but it still isn't nearly as fun to me as full-scale raiding. Maybe that seems selfish and snobby, but it's just my personal taste. I don't belittle anyone for it, and I don't mind it on my alts. But it's not fun on a character you've worked hard on and know well. I suspect the OP felt the same way.
Ammy Feb 6th 2012 2:12PM
Who says you can't be in a different guild and continue being friends at the same time? All of my WoW friends are pvpers and rpers and I personally feel that we aren't any less friends because we are in different guilds doing different things. As long as he continues to maintain contact with his friends they should continue being friends.
Stilhelm Feb 6th 2012 3:07PM
The problem for raisers with only doing LFR is that it's not really raiding. It's like someone who really loved mountain biking trying to be content with the flat paved trails in a small park, or loving to ski but having to be content with the bunny slope.
There are lots of raid teams with lots of variety in progress and lots of variety in people. My guild 10-man is mostly 30s and 40s, and being 39 myself I like it a lot more than I would in a group of mostly younger 20s.
Just look around in your server at who is recruiting, and ask to be invited on a couple raids on a trial basis to see how you feel with the group. Also Check guildox and look for stable guilds that might not be recruiting actively that are doing the kind of progression you want to do, look up officers on armory, and chat with them to let them know who you are and what you are looking for to see if there's room. There are many options and you can make new friends with the same goals you have.
DarkWalker Feb 6th 2012 3:56PM
This is another thing Blizzard needs to improve: WoW needs a better way to look for guilds. Their current tools are quite poor for the task, and they don't help with finding a guild across multiple realms.
BTW, I'm not likely to be recruited here; I flat out refuse to pay for a realm transfer, and I doubt many players from Gallywix or Goldrinn post comments on WoW Insider :)
Besides, for the moment I'm playing more LotRO than WoW; and, unless MoP really surprises me in a very positive manner, I'm bound to leave WoW (and LotRO) behind for either TSW or GW2 after they launch. Those two games have promised features that match what I want from a MMO quite a bit more than WoW; one of those "features" is how playing with friends is bound to be easier on both, with TSW planning to use a single "super server" from launch and allowing cross-faction grouping; and GW2 not having factions at all, allowing free and unlimited server transfers, and allowing players to be part of as many guilds as they want.
Robin Torres Feb 6th 2012 4:29PM
I like the idea of cross-server guilds. Have one chat that goes for the entire guild and make it easy to participate in the many cross-server activities that exist now. There really is no reason to server transfer any more except for guilds, so it should be taken away. Hmmmm I feel a Breakfast Topic coming on.
centenaro Feb 8th 2012 8:26AM
Azralon here :)
DarkWalker Feb 8th 2012 10:32AM
One issue (or, more exactly, a Blizzard issue) with enabling more cross-realm things is that the barriers between realm communities would go down. Blizzard seems to prefer realm communities to be independent, with little intentional communication, completely segregated economy, and low player mobility. Perhaps Blizzard fear that, if players can choose any realm at any time, most players will go to realms where their chosen faction dominates and the opposition is mostly absent.
I actually think completely breaking apart the restrictions on changing realms would be a good thing; it would allow players to find their ideal realm communities without having to mortgage their houses to pay for the transfers, would allow realm communities to perhaps specialize (imagine, for example, a realm where players could go to pug 25-man raids, another famous for in-game weddings and other ceremonies, and so on), would remove most problems with empty realms (players could just leave the empty realm behind and find one they liked better), and so on.
At the very least, I don't think easily changing realms would harm the game. Rift is almost as close to an AAA-budget WoW clone as you can get (disregarding TOR), has been providing weekly free transfers for all characters for the last half a year, and this doesn't seem to have destroyed their server communities. Besides, on the faction balance front, until Blizzard actually finds a good, workable way to tackle the problem head on, I don't see how easy realm changing could harm faction balance any more.
DarkWalker Feb 8th 2012 12:00PM
Just to complement, there was a blue post, not long ago, talking about some bold plan to tackle low population realms and faction imbalance the devs were contemplating (about which, obviously, he couldn't give any details).
It might be just wishful thinking on my part, but for a blue to describe a plan as being bold, I would guess it means departing from Blizzard's usual patterns. Given that it would be almost impossible to re-balance factions, specially at high levels, without both an incentive for players to change realms/faction to shore up the weaker faction, and granting players the means to do such changes, Blizzard might intend to mess with something among realm segregation, factions, and transfers.
Shrikesnest Feb 6th 2012 4:22PM
That song is for stupids and babies. I certainly don't sing it in the shower all the time, and I most definitely never got incredibly drunk and then told someone that I wish I was a woman just so that I could do it justice. Nope. Never happened.
...oh God I can't help it! I'm a grown man, but that show is too incredible!