Ready Check: Tiered raid progression vs. raid accessibility

Let's do a little bit of polling in my head, shall we? How many of you raided during vanilla? Not all that many, I'm sure, and not purely because not that many folks from that time are still around but also because a horridly low number of people who were around back then did raid. But let's say you did raid. How many actually got to clear through the original Naxx? Now, that's a small number of hands; after all, even Blizzard said that less than 1% of the player base so much as downed a single boss in the that instance. Moving on to The Burning Crusade, how many raided there? More hands that previously, I'm sure. Now how many of you progressed past Karazhan? How many cleared through Black Temple? Sunwell?
Let's keep getting more current, though. How many say Naxx in Wrath? Now how many saw ICC? OK, how many say any T11 content? How many of those saw Dragon Soul? Interesting! The number of hands gets progressively smaller as the raids within vanilla WoW and The Burning Crusade progress, yet it stays relatively the same throughout Wrath and Cataclysm. That's because in Wrath, Blizzard drastically changed its view on raiding -- far beyond merely making it easier.
The truth behind accessibility
Originally, raiding took an extremely linear progression path. You raided Molten Core so that you could get the gear to raid Blackwing Lair so that you could get the gear to raid AQ so that you could get the gear to raid Naxx. The same was true for The Burning Crusade as well. You raided Karazhan to raid SSC/TK to raid Hyjal/BT to raid Sunwell. If your raiding group was good enough, you might be able to pull off skipping a step, but that was extremely difficult to pull off if your raid team was still trying to do progression.
All of that changed in Wrath. Blizzard did far more than create four varying difficulty modes -- 10-man, 25-man, 10-man heroic, and 25-man heroic. It completely revamped the way in which players progressed through the endgame scene itself. You didn't have to farm older raids in order to get into the newer raids anymore; progression instantly jumped to the most current raiding tier. Just hit 80 and ICC is already out? No problem! Justice and valor gear that you can get from farming 5-man instances will jump you straight past all the prior raiding tiers so that you can jump right into the most current raiding tier.
This was the change that made raiding as accessible as it is today. Forget 10s and 25s; forget normals and heroics. Those were nice changes that helped set the curve. But it was the ability to completely skip entire tiers of content that really opened up raiding on a whole new level.

Once you hit max level, you began your search for a solid raiding guild. Generally, you'd find several that were still working on intro-level raids and were more than willing to take you. You'd join up, start raiding, get your gear, and suddenly realize that you weren't really progressing anywhere. You would clear, say, Karazhan, maybe work on a few TK/SSC bosses, maybe even down a few now and again, but true progression never seemed to happen. There was a constant cycle of players coming and going; probably every other week, at least one person seemed to drop off into the void. Suddenly, you noticed that a guild that was already clearing TK/SSC and working on Hyjal/BT was looking for your spec, and they were willing to take you! So you jumped on board. Congrats -- you just left your first feeder guild.
That is what a feeder guild was, guilds whose progression was perpetually locked in a stagnant loop because every time that one of their players get geared enough to the point that the raid might really start to push progression, he would jump ship to a guild that was already progressed. It seems cruel -- those people seem horrible, honorless, and what have you -- but that was how the game was played. Less progressed guilds existed purely for the sake of gearing new recruits for more progressed guilds; thus, the more progressed guilds didn't have to waste their time going back to old instances to farm gear for new recruits.
Emblems and now points removed the need for this type of cycle entirely. Feeder guilds ceased to exist because there was no need for them. Recruits could be fully geared from the previous raiding tier in a week's worth of 5-man farming.
How change is better
In many ways, this was a fantastic change. Being that feeder guild was no fun, perpetually locked into your current state with no means of advancement. It was hellish to everyone involved. Many of these guilds didn't survive very long, and even if they did, their leadership usually changed by the month. It was a system that needed to be broken, and Blizzard did just that. It had to be intentional. Blizzard has always said that the reason it implemented this change was so new players who just hit max level would be able to keep up with their friends -- but let's be honest, that's bull and we all know it. Blizzard saw the perpetual state of feeder guilds and knew that it had to be broken if it wanted true raid accessibility.
Look at the numbers. Even with 10s and 25s, even with normals and heroics, more players fail to complete raid zones than do complete them. There is a disproportionate number of players that've killed Halfus and Magmaw compared to those who've downed Nefarian and Cho'gall. The same was true for Shannox and Ragnaros (although Firelands, with many fewer bosses, did have more equalized progression), and it wasn't until after nerfs to these raids that raid progression did increase.
Without justice and valor gear, without additional 5-mans to boost gearing, guilds still would have fallen into the same pattern that they had in The Burning Crusade and vanilla. It probably wouldn't have been as extreme now as it was then, but it would still have happened. You would still have ended up with guilds that never got through all of T11 and might only have seen a little bit of T12 progression, because their members would have constantly been rushing off to join up with guilds that had already cleared T12 and were working on T13. This gear reset for every single tier was needed to prevent that from happening, and it's worked.

Like magic, though, everything always has a price. While guilds are freed from being stuck in a single tier, players are able to skip entire tiers worth of raiding -- but that was half the point, so how is that a price? Because raids have a purpose. Karazhan was successful, and Molten Core and Zul'Gurub were successful, not due to their design but because of the purpose that they served. They were introductory raids. Their mechanics were a bit simpler, they weren't as tightly tuned (eventually, in the case for MC), and they introduced players to the entire concept of raiding versus 5-man content. A 5-man boss might have a single ability to watch out for, maybe two in a few cases, but a raid boss? You can get 8 to 10 abilities, multiple phases, adds, anything, everything -- it's crazy!
Introductory raids existed to teach players the more basic raiding concepts, that you can't stand in fires, that you have to interrupt, that you need to work as a team. The movement mechanics of Netherspite, while interesting and neat in their own right, wasn't nearly as difficult as those of Hydross. At their core, the two were fairly similar, but Hydross was a step above Netherspite in difficulty not purely because it required more DPS, more effective health, and more healing, but because the overall mechanics of the encounter were more complex.
WoW doesn't have that system any more. There are no introductory raids because every raid is an introductory raid. Players don't progress from T11 to T12 to T13; they don't even progress from T12 to T13. They hit max level and they jump straight into T13 content.
This forces a drastic change to the way in which raids have to be designed. You can't have a first boss like Hydross or Al'ar that are fairly complex and difficult. Instead, every raid has to start with Huntsman- or Mandokir-level fights. For a tier such as T11 where there are 13 or whatever encounters, that's fine. Tossing in a few easier or learning encounters that new players can train against is a good thing. When a tier has only seven or eight bosses, though? It's a little more tricky.
Paying the piper
Compare Dragon Soul to Icecrown Citadel. Marrowgar was a fairly easy encounter as far as those go. He had Bone Spikes and a whirlwind -- that's it. Deathwhisper, too, was fairly basic. Adds spawn at set intervals and set locations, and then you had a phase 2 with simple movement and interrupting. Lootship was lootship, but after that, the encounters ramped up in complexity rather quickly.
Dragon Soul is fairly similar. Morchok is an extremely basic encounter; so too is Zon'ozz and, to an extent, Yor'sahj as well (although I would argue that he's way more fun and potentially complex than Hagara). By the time you're done with the introductory encounters, there's just not much left to go on. Firelands, though better than Dragon Soul as well, was much the same.
Shorts raids are fine by design, but coupled with the need for two or three intro bosses, it makes for rather boring tiers. This is the price that Blizzard is paying with the new raid design. Let's hope that it can amply pay it in Mists of Pandaria, because it frankly did not in Cataclysm.
Ready Check shares all the strategies and inside information you need to take your raiding to the next level. Be sure to look up our strategy guides to Cataclysm's 5-man instances, and for more healer-centric advice, visit Raid Rx.
Filed under: Raiding, Ready Check (Raiding)
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 3)
sulkar Feb 11th 2012 12:55AM
What's weird about the MMO expansion model, and the accessible raid model more so, is how much content it obsoletes. In BC, even after Sunwell was released, all the raids were "worthwhile" to run for a certain percentage of people. Post Ulduar, that's not the case.
Is there a way to make the older raids relevant while also making the current raid accessible? If not all raids ever, at least the ones within an expansion?
Blayze Feb 11th 2012 12:15PM
I don't think so. The benefit of having iLevels reset each tier is that it gives players the extra statistical benefit they might need to down That One Boss in the previous tier they just couldn't kill before.
Ayane Feb 11th 2012 2:16AM
One day Blizzard woke up from a long sleep. They realized, that giving people with different skill levels, and time commitments, access to the entire game, was the right thing to do.
They woke up, and realized that catering to the 2% was a waste of resources and man power. Also at this time the MMO market was larger, with plenty of those games, offering far more content, and accessibly, than they had. Players had choice, and no longer did they need to sick around, and farm mats for guilds.
However after the inception of the LFD and now the LFR (and the ease of the game during Wrath) the growing pains have become a bit harsh. Their are some that still cling to the 'old guard', and relish the time when they held the keys, to the kingdoms of content.
It will take a long time for some guilds to come around to it, but these changes will be for the best.
No longer is the art of this game wasted.
In time things will change, and people will
jjustaposter Feb 11th 2012 8:25AM
all they managed were to get fly by night raiders and subscriptions.
The noobs and baddies clear LFR in one day of a teir then unsub and go back to Call of Duty.
While the rest of us get a lousy 7-8 raid bosses for 11 months an shit for content.
Hardly good. and why their base is leaving.
Philster043 Feb 11th 2012 2:32AM
Articles like this make me happy that I joined WoW when I did (3 years ago) - right before the advent of Dungeon Finder and shortly before ICC. I enjoy having the option to see everything in the game I'm playing, as well as the ability to decide what time I would do it. I don't know if I could have been able to stand it back in vanilla and BC having to be part of a hardcore guild in order to see everything. Now, the only thing you have to be part of a guild for lore-wise is in order to see/do is the legendary questlines, or the "recent" outdated raids like Blackwing Descent. That doesn't bother me as much as it would not being able to do the raids.
jjustaposter Feb 11th 2012 11:23AM
your kind has killed the mmo genere.
Lipstick Feb 11th 2012 6:20AM
I was stuck in a "feeder" guild for pretty much all of BC. We never got much beyond ZA/Kara. It was a never ending cycle of gearing people up only to lose them. Back then, I didn't need a level 25 guild or an in game reputation to make me feel bad about leaving my guild. Realms were smaller, more closed communities, and ditching on your former guild mates, wasn't an easy thing to do -- cause you would see your ex guildees everywhere, and not everyone was cool with this behavior. It encouraged the honor system. People knew who guild hopped.. people knew who were loyal. And you knew without the means of gear score whom was good at what they did. Your reputation wasn't on a reputation pane -- it simply existed based on whom you knew and how you performed.
Those that say LFR is the missing link .. are both right and wrong. LFR as an idea -- is great. A raid that people can do whenever they want, without needing to wait for guildees to come online. A raid which allows you to clear an entire tier .. experience the RP events which takes place inside the raid and walk away with a vague idea of the boss encounters. The introductory raid before the -real- raiding.
In practice however, LFR fails miserably. Players don't show up in LFR and consider it a "teach me how to raid" training module, and lord help them if they do. Because the things people learn in LFR are terrible! LFR teachs you that it's totally okay to ignore boss mechanics. That healing assignments aren't necessary. That for the most part you need to have zero awareness what so ever because just about nothing will allow you to die. 95% of the time, LFR groups consist of people who consider it a free-for all healing/dps party -- with a free loot pinata at the end. Incidentally the loot system still isn't fixed -- players are still able to obtain items they already have -- and save them in case the piece they -really- want drops and then offer what they already have up in exchange for this new item. About the only thing LFR teachs you .. is to push a button for hour of twilight. Not exactly a large education there. I could learn the same from a 2 minute read through the dungeon journal. And if all people want is the RP cut scenes -- well those are typically available via a clicakble monument in game {re: the LK monument in Dal in wrath, and the armor piece from DW in Cata}.
LFR isn't raiding. It looks like a raid. It seems like a raid. But sadly, it is not a raid. It takes everything I love about raiding -- and strips it down to little more than the AOE fests which were Wrath of the Lich King Heroics at the end of the expac. It's a slightly prettier dungeon. But real Raiding involves coordination, real raiding often requires some outside research or reading via the dungeon journal, icy-veins, tankspot-learn to raid or some other sort of communication about boss abilities.
Real raiding requires communication ... whether it's calling for a CD because the the tanks are all down, or communicating someone is out of range, or one tank needs to taunt off the other.
Real raiding requires awareness of what's around you -- and what target you should be on -- this goes for both healing and DPS -- as many raids require DPS to move while still dpsing a boss -- or requires a healer to prioritize targets for heals, while ensuring their own safety. This isn't really present in LFR as most of the fights boil down to stack up .. heal/dps.
Real raiding requires determination to persevere despite a wipe --which simply isn't needed in LFR -- as wipes are almost impossible and if there are any -- someone simply initiates a vote kick for someone or drops group and someone else replaces them.
In a nutshell .. LFR teachs people that behaving badly is perfectly okay -- because you will win at the end of it.
I am not some "I hate casual players" elitist. There is a need to give something to do to those who can't raid due to time constraints, and who don't enjoy pvp. There is some sort of transition which does need to exist... but it just doesn't feel like LFR is hitting that mark. But I hated the AOE rush through the heroic in 20 minute runs in wrath, for the same reason that I hate the LFR tool. People don't need to speak .. they don't really stop to think about what they're doing .. and the speed at which people zoom through the whole experience, doesn't feel like playing to me. It's like saying that if you fast forward through a movie in a VCR .. you've watched the movie. When realistically you've only walked away with a few snapshots that might allow you to piece together a story .. but you miss all the really exciting, emotionally impactful moments. You miss the wittiness of amazing banter. I miss the impressiveness of the soundtrack.
Lastly my concern falls for the one price this article didn't talk about, or at least not in detail and that's development time. If developers have to adjust the difficulty/tuning of the content for LFR, 10mN, 10mH, 25mN, 25mH .. that's five levels of difficulties/raid tiers that need adjusting. The addition of LFR means even more development time overall .. which can translate to .. less time spent creating raiding content period.
Personally I liked that ICC was so big. I don't like that Firelands and DS are so small. I feel like we plow through the content much too quickly, or worse yet grind face on the heroic version of some of the content to burn out. Variety tends to make things more interesting, and it just seems like you burn out less in content tiers with separate wings, or more options for raids overall.
In the end, if this LFR = less content ... we all lose.
vortalism Feb 11th 2012 7:34AM
I hope Blizzard changes it for the better because if its true purpose is to be a introductory raid for people to experience raiding, then I think it still needs some time and more attention on the part of Blizzard to make it an ideal "teaching session".
This is truly only the beginning of the LFR and I think that given Blizzard being Blizzard they will find a way to "fix" it. Besides the fact that LFR is going the way of LFD both of those systems can be changed to fit what it should be: a teaching tool for raiding/dungeoning.
Also I think a "Raid Library" with all the previous encounters you wish you could raid but never could can be done now. This can be set to lvl 85 (and eventually lvl 90), I imagine this would also be good for 5 man Dungeons. Just an idea though.
Elmo Feb 11th 2012 7:20AM
Never had that problem during BC though we weren't the most progressed guild on the realm (and faction) we were sort of tied second alliance side with another guild (4th realm overall) and while we only started progressing into 25 man (Gruul/Mag) after BT had already been released.
We did lose some members to the higher progressed guild but a core of about 15 people managed to stay together and kill all bosses including KJ (nerfed)
I think part of the problem was the rough transition from 10man Kara to 25 Gruul/Mag in the first tier, many guilds struggled with that, after that Kael/Vasjh were a roadblock but in some ways easier than 10-->25
weepixie Feb 11th 2012 8:24AM
LFR has become the "introductory".
My problem with the LFR is that it was designed to give more people a chance to experience the content (a wonderful thing) but it a) doesn't teach them how to raid properly, while b) offering a substantial reward that leaves players assuming that they're now raiders.
I lead both a progression group (doing HMs) and a casual group (normals). The casuals sometimes grumble that they should be "allowed" to do what the progression group does, yet their actual numbers are a substantial difference lower than the hardcore group - by some 15k on bosses like Ultraxion, and by 20K or more on Madness. As a whole, the casuals geared a lot faster because they were all doing LFR every week, but they only now cleared Madness (ie post nerf), and with fewer than 5 seconds left on the timer. They're limiting themselves - I'm not doing to them by not allowing them to see heroic bosses. Gear does not make you a progression raider. *What you do with it* does.
This will probably get voted down, because it seems like people prefer thinking that wanting = having, but as a raid leader, I have to deal with the reality and the *mentality* that LFR has created and I'm not going to be quiet about that. And I know it's just not from my own casual raiders, I listen in trade and read the forums - and the comments here. I have an alt in a tiny guild on another server and last night was listening to one of them gripe heartily about the fact that he was turned down from raiding with a pug, even - he was quoting his 20k dps and all his LFR gear as sufficient reason to go and declared that he WOULD do a heroic raid sometime, dangit!!!! >:{ As the conversation continued, it became very clear that he felt that because he'd completed the raid in LFR and had all his tier from there and weapons and so on, that he was now ready to step up into heroic modes. Yet his best damage output is what my hardmode raiders were pushing two tiers ago. This kind of thinking is prevalent today, is directly tied to LFR, and it's the destruction of raiding, in my opinion.
jjustaposter Feb 11th 2012 8:29AM
well.... Let's see..
Blizz gave beta invites to ever top EQ guild on every server....
Blizz's devs and core were built on the successful EQ raider....
It was a model they followed for the game release, an expack and why alot of us bought an xpack after... so let's do the math... Vanilla wow 4 mil. tbc 8 mil wrath release 12 mil... casualization 10 mil counting non paying chinese accounts.. so prob more like 4 mil PAYING accounts.
Simple. The hardcore gamer gave the scrubs something to aspire to and were also solid long term customers themselves.
The reason wow is in the shitter is they gave it to the masses to moron mode clear. morons clear it? moron gets bored and unsubs for the next 5-11 months of the tier. hardmode gamer instead shows what can be accomplished, thus giving moron gamer a goal, while they still pay.
Matt Feb 12th 2012 8:25PM
I completely agree with Weepixie. While on the one hand, I think the raid finder is an excelent addition and has the potential to do great things for WoW, I also feel that currently it's not doing a very good job as an introduction to Raiding. It's far more like a Dungeon than a raid right now, where the average player can get ignoring a lot of the mechanics and still down a boss.
This isn't to say that I think the raid finder is "for noobs" or anything silly like that - but it's not doing a very good job of introducing newer players to the raiding scene: Which, surprise, does require a lot of work, research, dedication, and practice. This isn't a bad thing, and to many players it's exactly WHAT they want out of raiding; however, I think there is a large group of new raiders who aren't being properly prepared for this environment.
In my opinion, it's analogous to not being prepared in high school for the adult world, and then expecting to be able to show up late to work late, miss work often, or only do 80% of your work. While this might have gotten someone by in a high school setting, it definitely wouldn't fly in the working place. Right now, the raid finder is like that bad high school - it's not preparing new raiders, but it's making them FEEL like it has, and that's really detrimental to the raiding community and those new raiders.
weepixie Feb 11th 2012 8:46AM
jjustaposter says: Simple. The hardcore gamer gave the scrubs something to aspire to and were also solid long term customers themselves.
This. For all that it's crude, it's also true. I started playing 2 months before WotLK came out and heard the stats for Sunwell clears. My first thought was: "I want to be THAT good, to be in that 1%. What do I have to do to get there?" I was inspired to reach for the top. All human societies are competitive, with competitions for everything from physical sports to contests of intellect to pie baking. Competition is a fundamental driving force in our species.
But for some reason, people think that shouldn't apply to raiding. Here, the playing field has to be leveled, so that just by wanting to have something, you get it. That kind of paradigm will fail, of course.
jjustaposter Feb 11th 2012 10:25AM
thank you.
imo there was nothing wrong with a few weekends just to get ony attuned. heck, it added Greatly to the feel of the game and the sense of accomplishment, and gave people something to do.
Watercooler... what did you do this weekend? oh I did LFR in an hour, took the kid to the park, watched the wife cook dinner and jerked off to pr0n.
Dude, I got attuned to ONY!!!. cool bro see you friday! fucking A!!!
see the difference here?
Jefaar Feb 11th 2012 10:21AM
Great article! I would just add two points to why the new model is costly. (1) Blizzard spends a lot of time creating raids, and now players will never see any content except the current tier. In BC, players raided Kara the entire expansion. In WOTLK, there was absolutely no reason to go back to Naxx, Ulduar, or ToC once IC was relased. The same is true for Cata. Players miss out on some great raid experiences and it feels like all that creative energy is going to waste. (1) It takes away some of the feeling of accomplishment for completing a raid tier. You feel on top of the world for a short period, but then the next tier is released and you are equalized with all the other players who simply run 5-mans. We can all accept that this must happen with each expansion, but it's kind of unnerving that it happens every patch. All this being said, I understand why Blizzard cose to go this route. It makes a lot of business sense to make raiding more accessible.
rkaliski Feb 12th 2012 9:52AM
To Ijustaposter,
Your writing style and attitude is one reason WoW is shedding people than my cat sheds hair on the couch. You feel the need to lord your abilities over others by calling them rather childish names.
You would think guilds would try to teach new players the basics of raiding, but over the years that "hardcore" element seems to guard their knowledge like a dragon and his gold. With the game trending towards questing to level and accelerated leveling vs grinding it's no wonder people who hit max don't know how to use their skills.
BTW "hardore" in Vanilla and TBC meant for me people screaming at each other in vent, endless nasty comments in raid chat and a willingness to gkick in the interests of progression. If you wanted to raid you put up playing a call you may have hated, in a spec you despised and possibly sitting around IF all night hoping to get that invite if someone had connection problems.
Oh, so much fun...hold me back.
See you in SWTOR.
eel5pe Feb 11th 2012 12:57PM
Complaining about monetizing the game... while advertising service to buy/sell accounts...
*squint*
Dude I appreciate that you're not just spam because you actually express a coherent opinion, but please don't come to this website and advertise a service that violates the ToS.
jcgoodman Feb 12th 2012 1:44PM
I agree that the old system sucked: I was a raid leader during BC, and managing three tiers' worth of weekly raids to provide a progression path for new players was awful. And yes, the "feeder guild" thing really was a problem.
But the new system, catapulting new players into endgame content in just two weeks of 5-mans, goes too far. I think the progression path should be changed, so that 5-man gear only provides gear *two* tiers back from endgame. So right now, for instance, we'd have an ilvl 359 5-man, but you'd still have to raid Firelands (LFR and normal) to get into Dragon Soul.
Matt Feb 12th 2012 8:14PM
Man, can you guys believe this "scrub" jjustaposter? He didn't clear Heroic Deathwing within the first month after its release. What a "scrub" for not being as the best guilds in the world. Doesn't he know that everyone CAN be the best? If they're not the best, it's just because they're "scrubs"!
Clearly. *rolls his eyes at jjustaposter*