Looking for raid, or looking for trade?
by Anne Stickney 
Feb 15th 2012 at 1:00PM
My interactions with the Raid Finder have been limited, for the most part. I'm in a raiding guild, and we were told when the Raid Finder came out that we would do guild runs to start out with. This was to make sure that all drops benefited everyone in the guild, and honestly, it was a smart idea. Players got their set bonuses with relative speed, and we completed the encounters with no difficulty at all just due to the fact that they were relatively easy in comparison to the normal-mode raiding we were doing.
However, after we began melting more gear than we were keeping and started working on heroics in earnest, our raid leader let us know that if we really needed anything else from the Raid Finder, we'd have to go run it on our own. So it was with a fair amount of confidence that I queued up for Dragon Soul, looking for a trinket that was so far eluding my rogue in normal mode content. No big deal, right? Easy enough, and by now plenty of people ought to be familiar with the content. Well ... not so much.
However, after we began melting more gear than we were keeping and started working on heroics in earnest, our raid leader let us know that if we really needed anything else from the Raid Finder, we'd have to go run it on our own. So it was with a fair amount of confidence that I queued up for Dragon Soul, looking for a trinket that was so far eluding my rogue in normal mode content. No big deal, right? Easy enough, and by now plenty of people ought to be familiar with the content. Well ... not so much.
Big Bear Butt wrote an eloquent post explaining the phenomenon that I observed after stepping into my first non-guild Raid Finder group. You see, one generally expects that if a person doesn't need a piece of loot, they will pass on said loot and let someone that needs it have it for an upgrade. It's the nice and polite thing to do, right? Well, instead, a lot of Raid Finder players are simply rolling need on every piece of gear they can get their hands on, regardless of whether or not it's an upgrade. They are rolling need on gear they already have equipped. Why?
Because in their infinite wisdom, these players have decided to try and land these loot pieces as bartering chips in a game of You Got the Loot I Want, I Have the Loot You Need -- Let's Trade. So instead of a normal raid, where the fights are the most difficult part of the encounter, looting is now a complex series of "I want that trinket. Do you want this tier? I'll trade this tier for that trinket." But the trinket winner doesn't need the tier, however, the person who won a weapon that the trinket winner needs does need tier, so the trinket winner trades for tier and then trades that tier to the weapon winner so the weapon winner has tier, the trinket winner has weapon, and tier winner has trinket.
And if you managed to make it through that last sentence without having your eyes slowly cross in confusion, bless you. But Big Bear Butt does bring up the conundrum and wonders if this is going to be the face of the Raid Finder from now on. He also wonders what can be done about it -- and I don't think I have an answer for that question. Sure, Blizzard could place more limitations on loot, but that still wouldn't stop people from rolling on what they've already got.
One solution suggested is for the loot system to simply ignore players who have obviously already won loot that drops. So if you picked up the unique-equipped Wrath of Unchaining and happen to be wearing it, the option to roll on it will not pop up for you. But then people might just hide their gear in their bags and equip suboptimal gear. So what then? Do you have the loot system check the player's inventory, including anything they may have in their bank? Do you have the loot system create a database, a list of everything a player has won, and exclude them from rolling on an item that is already on that list?
There's a far easier solution, and sadly, I don't think it's going to ever catch on. It's called Don't Roll Need on Items You Don't Need. It's the solution where people treat people as human beings, rather than objects standing between them and profit. It's the solution of personal accountability, in which a player asks themselves if it's right to do this -- and the answer is automatically no, not "Well, everyone else is doing it, so I'm going to do it too."
Brace yourselves for what could be some of most exciting updates to the game recently with patch 4.3. Review the official patch notes, and then dig into what's ahead: new item storage options, cross-realm raiding, cosmetic armor skinning and your chance to battle the mighty Deathwing -- from astride his back!
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
Wales Feb 15th 2012 1:07PM
Just got Maw of the Dragonlord a couple of minutes ago off a priest who already had it. He just gave it to me. It 's like a Pinata in there and I knew going into it. Leave it alone - if I want the gear I will do the real raid other than that the only thing I will count on is the easy valor.
xvkarbear Feb 15th 2012 1:31PM
I won the mace early on.. but I rolled need on one run a couple of weeks ago. There was this other resto druid, who was just insulting the dps and healers. He said he was the best and we'd all die without him. I didn't pay him much attention, other then to make a mental note to ignore him after the fight.
So, we've downed Yersa's, Nozdormu's, and Alexstraza's platform down. It's not been an easy fight.. any healers can attest that if you're in a group where the dps doesn't kill the fragment right away or you have a weak healer.. it makes the fight all that much more difficult to heal. We had both.
So, I've popped Tranquility and my mana is almost gone with innervate still on cooldown when the idiot resto druid whispers me like: :B I've been afk most of the fight. lol! and then proceeds to tell me that he and I are the only good healers there.
I was so angry I was just beside myself. In my personal opinion he was a really shitty healer. You are not a good healer, no matter your HPS, if you're going afk during the fight and therefore making the fight more difficult for the other healers. Especially since I was busting my ass to heal a battle where I don't even need anything that drops.
I rolled on that mace for the sheer fact that I didn't want him to win it. It would be going to waste in his hands.
Neither of us won it, I believe a shaman did. But I'm happy to know it didn't end up in his hands.
Caz Feb 15th 2012 1:43PM
@ xvkarbear
I feel your pain.
Over the years I've noticed one reliable trend in World of Warcraft - the person putting down other players is usually not very good. I'm sorry, but there's NO WAY you can type in full sentences and actually participate to the best of your ability. If you're not doing your best, you have no right to criticize other players who may be trying to do their best.
Nowhere is this more evident than in battlegrounds. Each time I see *that guy* who is calling the team noobs, calling people losers, complaining that their faction sucks, complaining that the healers aren't keeping them alive, complaining about just about anything, you can almost guarantee that when you check the scorebooard at the end, that is the peron who will have the lowest honor score, the lowest healing done, the lowest damage done, the lowest objectives completed and the lowest honor kills.
LFR is no different. What a joke - that guy telling you he's one of the best healers there while he stands there and does nothing.
Moeru Feb 15th 2012 1:43PM
I think people just need to realize like the OP that RF isn't there for loot. It's there for people who can't do normal raids due to time constraints or lack of confidence (yes, all you need to raid with a raid group is confidence in yourself that you do well).
If you don't want to to deal with the people in LFR, don't go in there. It sucks if you're looking for gear, but you don't have to do LFR to get into 10-man DS.
Tom Feb 15th 2012 4:11PM
I just realized - you know what this is? It's all the 'l33t professional raiders' come to grief the rest of us. How many times have you heard a complaint from a l33t that the 'casuals' get too much or that the game's gone soft. ONLY the hard-core raiders deserve these rewards, and now look - more casual players are getting them. We don't deserve them, so the abuse of the 'need' button; might just drive a fair bit of them off the deep end, which might cause more than a few 'needless needs'.
Something to think about.
Spellotape Feb 15th 2012 6:19PM
@xvkarbear
While attempting to keep loot from a jerk might seem noble, it still means you're trying to put yourself in the position of loot master and that is not your role. The current loot system means all people - even obnoxious jerks who go afk - are entitled to roll on loot and win it. Either you support the fairness an equal opportunity of everyone rolling and winning, or you don't and you just roll on gear for your own ends - whether they be to prevent someone else from winning an item or to trade it to someone else etc.
SamLowry Feb 15th 2012 11:41PM
Just create a database for every character that lists everything they've ever won. If you've already won a unique item, you can't roll on it again. If you're a rogue, fury warrior, etc. and you've already won two of that weapon, then you can't roll on it again.
Simple.
kingoomieiii Feb 15th 2012 1:09PM
INCREDIBLY SIMPLE solutions.
1. the Raid Finder gear trading timer expires after 10 minutes instead of two hours. (Or, maybe NO trade timer. I've yet to see it used legitimately post-double loot fix.)
2. NO VENDOR PRICES on RF gear.
Ellemir Feb 15th 2012 1:21PM
I have used the trading legitimately - rolled need on the tier pants on my priest, because I'd forgotten I'd just gotten the 397 tier pants on my guild's other raid that'd I'd subbed in for someone that week. Realized it as we were heading for the next boss, asked who else wanted it, handed it over to the first person of the right class who asked.
But overall, yes, I agree with your point - and no vendor price for RF gear, definitely!
rivertondrummer Feb 15th 2012 1:31PM
@ellemir
Honestly you should look at your gear BEFORE you need/greed to see if its an upgrade
arkhan Feb 15th 2012 1:38PM
I was tanking LFR recently on my fresh DK and the other tank gave me the tank trinket after he won it, because he saw that I was sporting two 346 trinkets still. So, there are situations where trading in LFR gets used legitimately. You just have to run into nice people. Which admittedly doesn't happen often.
ahsanali Feb 15th 2012 1:48PM
Or put 10g reward for passing - guaranteed. So you can be an ass and roll need/greed and get nothing if you lose. Or get the 10g for passing and move on.
Starlin Feb 15th 2012 1:52PM
One more tweak, make it so the gear cannot be disenchanted.
hwacha Feb 15th 2012 2:11PM
I ran lfr on my alt resto druid last week, rolled need on something (already forgot, how embarassing) and didn't win. There was also an agil leather piece that dropped that I rolled DE on. Once we arrived at the next boss, I had a trade window open up with the piece I needed on inside it. The other resto druid gave it to me "because you didn't roll on the agil gear".
I'm still a little speechless when I think about how bad this system is that people are doing that.
adamjgp Feb 15th 2012 2:25PM
A lot of players don't really care about winning the loot. They press the need button because it's active. Removing the vendor price, or making it so that the item can't be DE'd will help a bit, but people will still roll need if it's an option.
The idea of getting paid to pass on loot is a great one. I think that's the kind of incentive that needs to be introduced. Pair it with the no DE & no vendor price & no trade, and you may find that people decide to just take their gold and not needlessly click the 'need' button.
Shinae Feb 15th 2012 2:33PM
I'm the beneficiary of a trade used legitimately.
I was dpsing in RF on my arms warrior with a 378 weapon. The DK tank won Gurthalak, not knowing that his need roll would be counted as a need-plus. So he announced that he would give it to a strength dpser. He took a while deciding who to give it to and, because I was patient enough to wait around long enough after politely expressing my interest, he gave it to me.
Because of this, I hope the option to trade RF loot never goes away.
Stilhelm Feb 15th 2012 4:27PM
Actually, rather than the guaranteed 10g for passing (why do we need another source of gold in the game), I think it would be a good idea if they charged 10g for each need roll, win or not. Many will still roll need because they "don't need that 10g", but would thinking about rolling need if they don't need it because giving it away is sometimes harder than not getting it.
Or, make it 100G fee when you actually win an item on need roll. Anything to make those who don't really need the loot think about whether they need it or not.
Or even remove the loot altogether, and just give some gold/vp at the end of the run and say "congratulations, you've now seen the content" so we don't feel obligated to run it on our raiding toons to benefit our guild's progression.
D Feb 15th 2012 6:07PM
@Ellemir
kingoomieiii's is about the best idea I have seen. I think the amount of loot lost to accidental roll would pale in comparison to the improvement in quality of the runs. I ignore everyone I see doing that.
Someone else said loot doesn't really matter in there. That is asinine. If it didn't matter there would be no issues. Not everyone's schedule can accommodate a regular raiding schedule.
JattTheRogue Feb 15th 2012 7:59PM
This would be great. It would solve so many problems.
I was tanking on my DK the other day, and the other tank was also a DK who was a little better geared than I was. I saw some shoulders drop that I needed (I had terrible luck on shoulder drops throughout Firelands and was still in 359s), thinking that I would win with no competition since the other DK was wearing those exact same shoulders ... but no. He won, and when I whispered him to call him out on it, he said he rolled on it to trade it to his buddy. Talk about being angry. I called him a couple names (nothing too terrible, just stuff like asshole), whined about how that was the point of the role bonus, letting people who needed it for main spec win it, and about how shoulders were the main thing I needed since it was pretty much the only piece of gear I had under 378. After venting, I moved on and got over it, and was ready to pull. Apparently the tank told his friend, because all of a sudden a trade window opened and his friend gave me the shoulders and apologized (I never heard anything from the other tank).
So two lessons: people will be dicks, but also, some can be nice if you bring up the problem. And an extra half lesson: even though it turned out all right, it might have better if I had been calmer about it, but I wasn't expecting to get the shoulders, I was just venting.
SamLowry Feb 15th 2012 11:39PM
Gee, no trading, no disenchanting, no vendor value--how long have we been asking for this?
Since the first weekend LFR came out.