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by Anne Stickney 
Feb 15th 2012 at 1:00PM
My interactions with the Raid Finder have been limited, for the most part. I'm in a raiding guild, and we were told when the Raid Finder came out that we would do guild runs to start out with. This was to make sure that all drops benefited everyone in the guild, and honestly, it was a smart idea. Players got their set bonuses with relative speed, and we completed the encounters with no difficulty at all just due to the fact that they were relatively easy in comparison to the normal-mode raiding we were doing.
However, after we began melting more gear than we were keeping and started working on heroics in earnest, our raid leader let us know that if we really needed anything else from the Raid Finder, we'd have to go run it on our own. So it was with a fair amount of confidence that I queued up for Dragon Soul, looking for a trinket that was so far eluding my rogue in normal mode content. No big deal, right? Easy enough, and by now plenty of people ought to be familiar with the content. Well ... not so much.
However, after we began melting more gear than we were keeping and started working on heroics in earnest, our raid leader let us know that if we really needed anything else from the Raid Finder, we'd have to go run it on our own. So it was with a fair amount of confidence that I queued up for Dragon Soul, looking for a trinket that was so far eluding my rogue in normal mode content. No big deal, right? Easy enough, and by now plenty of people ought to be familiar with the content. Well ... not so much.
Big Bear Butt wrote an eloquent post explaining the phenomenon that I observed after stepping into my first non-guild Raid Finder group. You see, one generally expects that if a person doesn't need a piece of loot, they will pass on said loot and let someone that needs it have it for an upgrade. It's the nice and polite thing to do, right? Well, instead, a lot of Raid Finder players are simply rolling need on every piece of gear they can get their hands on, regardless of whether or not it's an upgrade. They are rolling need on gear they already have equipped. Why?
Because in their infinite wisdom, these players have decided to try and land these loot pieces as bartering chips in a game of You Got the Loot I Want, I Have the Loot You Need -- Let's Trade. So instead of a normal raid, where the fights are the most difficult part of the encounter, looting is now a complex series of "I want that trinket. Do you want this tier? I'll trade this tier for that trinket." But the trinket winner doesn't need the tier, however, the person who won a weapon that the trinket winner needs does need tier, so the trinket winner trades for tier and then trades that tier to the weapon winner so the weapon winner has tier, the trinket winner has weapon, and tier winner has trinket.
And if you managed to make it through that last sentence without having your eyes slowly cross in confusion, bless you. But Big Bear Butt does bring up the conundrum and wonders if this is going to be the face of the Raid Finder from now on. He also wonders what can be done about it -- and I don't think I have an answer for that question. Sure, Blizzard could place more limitations on loot, but that still wouldn't stop people from rolling on what they've already got.
One solution suggested is for the loot system to simply ignore players who have obviously already won loot that drops. So if you picked up the unique-equipped Wrath of Unchaining and happen to be wearing it, the option to roll on it will not pop up for you. But then people might just hide their gear in their bags and equip suboptimal gear. So what then? Do you have the loot system check the player's inventory, including anything they may have in their bank? Do you have the loot system create a database, a list of everything a player has won, and exclude them from rolling on an item that is already on that list?
There's a far easier solution, and sadly, I don't think it's going to ever catch on. It's called Don't Roll Need on Items You Don't Need. It's the solution where people treat people as human beings, rather than objects standing between them and profit. It's the solution of personal accountability, in which a player asks themselves if it's right to do this -- and the answer is automatically no, not "Well, everyone else is doing it, so I'm going to do it too."
Brace yourselves for what could be some of most exciting updates to the game recently with patch 4.3. Review the official patch notes, and then dig into what's ahead: new item storage options, cross-realm raiding, cosmetic armor skinning and your chance to battle the mighty Deathwing -- from astride his back!
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 6)
yocraigst Feb 15th 2012 1:20PM
Stop the silly once a week limitation and allow ppl to roll whenever they kill a boss, like in heroic dungeons, which is what LFR really is anyway.
ricprospero Feb 15th 2012 1:22PM
I have noticed the same thing. Since i got pretty darn lucky in the beggining of the patch with rolls, I already got all the gear from LFR, including all 3 trinkets for my mage... However, the Need frenesi does have to stop.
This will be solved when Blizzard implements a smart kind of loot that recognizes if you have the item, equipped or in the bank, or even the normal or heroic equivalent, and then prevents you from rolling that piece.
That, and also preventing people from trading the gear.
rivertondrummer Feb 15th 2012 1:23PM
Thank you for this great post... Do you think Blizz could make Items in raid finder nontradeable? I think this would solve the everyone need on everything problem? Could you think of any problems with them doing that?
Peebers Feb 15th 2012 1:30PM
kinda like what's in place if you roll need on an epic boe?
Lipstick Feb 15th 2012 1:24PM
Things like this sort of bug me. I get a trinket that I was very excited to win and I have 15 people asking if I really need it. Saying yes isn't always enough for those people, as some people immediately follow that question up with "well you have better gear so you should give it to me."
Which is the height of rudeness in my opinion, because I don't know them, am not there to gear them, and if I rolled on something it's because I want/need it -- not because I gear check each and every competition and want to pass on something I need to help better my game play with my guild, because they aren't as geared as my main.
It's one thing when you choose to pass on gear in your guild for someone else -- because it benefits your guild's raid group overall ... it's another thing entirely for perfect strangers to expect you to pass for them.
So many times at the end of LFR I see some person trying desperately to trade someone for a tier token they have but can't use and all I can think about is the people whom drop early .. so the people who really need the item don't get it. It's just selfishness.
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My biggest issue with LFR lately is that it doesn't satisfy any of the things I really wanted for a LFR system.
It doesn't allow me to cue up any time day or night when I feel like raiding, to raid. What takes place in LFR is something which I refuse to call raiding. It's a free for all DPS/aoe healing fest which has been so stripped of any serious challenge that it's not even fun. It's worse than Wrath heroics in terms of difficulty once we all out geared the content. And this makes me sad that this is the content that those who love raiding, but are strapped for time are left with to enjoy. Frankly they deserve better.
It doesn't really act as a "learn to raid" model ... and in fact actively teaches some bad habits that in the long run -- hurts the very people I think it's trying to help. Blizz wanted to get more people into raiding, by lowering the pass/fail mechanic they felt that it would encourage more participation and give LFR a better chance at success -- I get that. The trouble is, what comes next for those people who've decided to transition from LFR to normals?
People use to complain about how easy ICC was back in the day when the 30% buff was out, and LFR has -nothing- on what's out now by comparison. You still had to avoid mechanics back then, and if you did the fight wrong, you could and would wipe. Some bosses in LFR you can totally skip the bosses mechanics and still win.
How is this getting people into raiding? This is getting people into LFR -- and leaving people pretty much stuck in LFR because if they tried to join any legitimate guild doing what goes on in most LFR's they'd not have their spot for long.
I want people to get into raiding -- I want people to see how much fun raiding can be -- I love raiding and I want others to love it to. I am not trying to be selfish here and demand that "casuals" not get any content -- I just frankly feel they deserve BETTER content.
Homeschool Feb 15th 2012 1:31PM
I don't honestly think their intent was to get people into raiding through LFR - that was more a perk or bonus, but not the goal. No, I believe that the whole point was to let non-raiders see the raid content. With a simplified, easy-mode version of the raids, they're no longer developing content for the 3% that raid. Given that a huge chunk of their development time (particularly in patches) goes into raiding tiers, and very little into solo or 5-man content, LFR allows for the whole player base to see the content.
It's a content thing, not a training thing.
Lipstick Feb 15th 2012 1:52PM
On a fundamental level I don't really see a difference between seeing the content, and getting into raiding. Few if anyone runs LFR once and never runs it again. Their development dollars are no better served by a person viewing the content once and never running it again. People could watch a video one time and retrieve relatively the same effect. No, to make it worth their while there has to be more to it then that.
When you train people for a new position at a company, the cost of that training often doesn't begin to pay for itself for several years. So when you go to work for a new company, often times the amount of money they make from you doesn't exceed what they've spent until you've been there for a considerable amount of time. {Referring more to companies which require several weeks of training}.
From a development perspective in wow, using that same model for compassion they need for LFR to pay off, either in continued visits, or in it transitioning people who enjoy raiding in LFR into more traditional raiding roles in other levels of difficulty. They need to develop a system which keeps people they are developing this content for -- using and enjoying this content.
Since raiding at it's very heart winds up being about progression -- progression of character gear -- progression of experience and understanding of encounters -- progression from one boss kill to the next -- from one difficulty to the next, I think it's simplistic to ignore this avenue of thinking entirely and say that Blizzard made the choice just to get people to see the content once and then quit.
Using the real world perspective that I used, the investment of their dollars spent in development time wont pay for itself for people just to get to "see" the content in LFR one time. It really only starts to pay for itself if they find a sustainable way to get more people into raiding and keep them there, as the business of MMO's are to make money, and statistically those whom raid tend to be longer subscribers than those who don't. {At least, I think this is a fair assessment, as once you're on that loot/content/progression train, it's difficult to get off}.
Put more simply they want/need more people to be a cog in the raiding machine as it keeps people paying monthly and keeps subscriptions high. If there is nothing for people to do after they hit max level then people either lose interest and quit -- develop a passion for pvp -- or start over at level 1 with a new alt. Eventually though there is always a ceiling on the amount of times a person is going to repeat the leveling process or go into PVP if they weren't inherently into pvp. Which means they NEED more PVE content available.
As a long term PVE raider however I have a very vested interest in the outcome of this situation. Because if blizz is going to spend development time on LFR -- this is dev time they are spending on content which they aren't spending on the content that I enjoy -- which means quality or quantity or both could and might drop off. The flip side of that, is that I -want- LFR to pay off not just for blizzard, but for the wow community as a whole. As a guild leader who spends a great deal of time on recruitment to keep "butts in the seats" finding and recruiting quality raiders is important to me. With that in mind, I want blizzard to be creating a situation in which there -are- more quality recruits.
So I kind of go back to what I said before, LFR teaches bad habits. The quality of the raiding it offers isn't sufficient at present to continuously draw people to the content -- and isn't doing what it ought to do at this point to better the game for everyone.
I'm thinking big picture, and long term here -- not short term, small issue.
Zani Feb 15th 2012 2:31PM
I think I disagree with you on LFR not teaching people to raid... Yesterday with my normal raiding group, we killed Maddness on our very first attempt. Why? Because we've all done LFR a million times and know exactly what to do. One of our group had only ever done LFR before and no normal mode raids prior to DS. He did just fine.
Bobby Earl Feb 15th 2012 4:27PM
could've*
shouldn't have*
I will never stop fighting the good fight.
Spellotape Feb 16th 2012 7:46AM
@Lipstick
I think you underestimate LFR as a teaching tool. Occasionally when my guild needs to pug an additional person for an alt run or whatever, our RL says when explaining fights "this is exactly like LFR *except*..." and then they list the additions/differences - our normal mode run is smoother because the pugged individual knows the majority of the fight already.
Consequently LFR gives people a frame of reference to any normal mode content they might end up in - it also equips them with gear to overcome normal mode. For some people it won't be enough and *that* will be the driving force towards moving onto more challenging content i.e. normal modes and maybe regular raiding and heroic modes. I also don't think LFR is meant to teach people anything more than it already does - initiative (reading the encounter journal/outside resources/other players) and trying to raid outside of LFR will teach you what you need to know. LFR just gets people interested.
Tyson Feb 16th 2012 8:32AM
I have to disagree lipstick. The point in LFR was so that people can see the content. Everyone pays the same price for the game and they pay the same subscription fee. It's only fair that they get to see the content. It doesn't affect you that someone else got to beat Deathwing. Even if they only do it once they were able to enjoy the content.
Now the non raiders that beat a LFR don't get the same level of satisfaction that you or I get out of a normal or heroic mode. You the feeling. The one you get when you beat the boss that has been handing your ass to you for weeks and your raid bursts into celebration in vent. LFR has nothing on that.
On a basic level LFR can train people for some mechanics in raids. On top of that it gets them into some ok gear so when one of your leet dips can't show up to a raid you can pug it in vent and find someone who has some basic experience on some of the boss fights. The raid leader easily saying something like "it's just like in LFR except you have to do ... When ... Happens." In a time when people are leaving the game in mass LFR may be something to save lots of people raids and guilds from going down the drain.
Now if blizzard could fix the issues we all have with LFR.
calaf Feb 15th 2012 1:24PM
I got downvoted in another post talking about this. But the insidious problem with this is if you don't participate with this you get screwed. People keep saying that attitude is a 2 wrongs making a right argument. It isnt... its just a fact. If people are rolling need on stuff i need my only recourse is to roll on stuff they need (even if i dont need it) in the hopes of being able to trade with them. SO it may make me look like a jerk but its the only way to make the looting fair for myself too. I think disallowing trades (or putting a short timer on it) and eliminating the ability to vendor the stuff would go a long way to fixing this.
Lipstick Feb 15th 2012 1:33PM
That's a weak excuse in my opinion.
But mooooooom all the OTHER kids are cheating on their SATs so I have to, tooo....
That's how what you just said reads. No, it's not the only legitimate way to get what you need. It's called there is always next week -- there is always reporting players caught engaging in that behavior -- it's called doing the right thing, no matter what some other person is doing.
I got whispered the other day from some priest who wanted me to roll on gear for her for a piece I was wearing. I told her unequivocally absolutely not that it was a violation of TOS and I wouldn't be a part of it. I don't know if it's 100% against the TOS, but given that members of Paragon and other guilds were banned for exploiting LFR it stands to reason in my eyes engaging in that kind of behavior by blizzard would ALSO be deemed exploiting the LFR system.
You ALWAYS have a choice in life. Always. It may not be the best choice, it may not be a choice which always puts you ahead of the game, but make absolutely no mistake .. it is ALWAYS a choice. By choosing to participate in this way, you are becoming a part of the problem, not becoming part of the solution.
calaf Feb 15th 2012 1:52PM
See again this is someone trying to paint me into the "two wrongs making a right" picture. Im not doing it because they are doing it and therefore it justifies me doing it. I do it because they are doing it which ACTIVELY screws me out of a fair shake at getting the gear I need.
To use your own metaphor its more like " mooooooom all the OTHER kids are cheating on their SATs and also writing a bunch of wrong answers on my test and lowering my grade"
I would be highly suspicious that this would be classified as an exploit.
What I'm saying is if we ALL became "part of the problem" the problem would go away. Either by equalizing the playing field for everyone or forcing Blizzard to fix it.
Lipstick Feb 15th 2012 2:02PM
Blizzard wouldn't need to fix it at all if we were all inherently participating "in the problem". It wouldn't be considered a problem, if some people -- those who were choosing to do the right thing -- weren't getting hurt by the process -- but they are. You have decided in your infinite wisdom you DO NOT want to get hurt by the process so have joined with those who are at fault. YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM, and contrary to your assertions EVERYONE IS NOT DOING IT.
By definition what you are doing is a text book two wrongs don't make a right. Justify it to yourself however you want -- you are doing something which is actively hurting somebody else -- known or unknown -- it is happening. Because if someone drops group who could of used something legitimately before you get to go through your little trade the items for what I really want song and dance routine -- they lost out.
It's a silent crime, and maybe it doesn't matter to you -- you'll probably say maybe they shouldn't of dropped group or some such nonsense -- but it's not a victimless crime, just because you don't leave the victim crying in an alleyway.
What you are doing is wrong.
NotaNinja Feb 15th 2012 3:02PM
Give up calaf ... It's a dick move!!!
eel5pe Feb 15th 2012 5:07PM
First, I can sympathize with the OP even if I don't completely agree with him. To cite an analogous WoW situation: you're in a low-level dungeon and someone in your group needs on everything in sight. The obvious recourse is for everyone in the group to need on everything as well, because that way at least there is a (mostly) fair loot distribution. Continuing to greed on principle would be admirable I guess, but doesn't really accomplish anything in this situation.
And @lipstick: as stated in Blue post, it's definitely not against the ToS and the GMs you notify will not be able to do anything. Please don't continue to occupy valuable GM time.
Also, Paragon's exploit had absolutely nothing to do with loot trading.
eel5pe Feb 15th 2012 5:10PM
oops, I need to learn to read. You weren't actually opening GM tickets. Sorry. Also just wanted to let you know that I really enjoyed your earlier post about LFR's shortcomings.
Homeschool Feb 15th 2012 1:25PM
Honestly, I don't see why they don't just take away your role bonus. They already do it with double-drops (if you win the first but rolled Need on both, the second doesn't give you a role bonus on your roll). Seems like it would be simple to check your equipped or bagged gear.
Granted, you'll still have people who don't have it or want it, but I don't think you can fix that. We'd need some sort of player rating system (as in, rating people you grouped with on their skill and manners) to let us sort the abusers off into their own anarchistic queue.
Then again, perhaps it's time for that?
JoshEH Feb 15th 2012 1:25PM
I'm doing 4 toons in LFR right now and see this all the time. So far my policy has been if it's an upgrade I need on it, if I want it as a tradable item later I greed it. Sadly though few others seem to be going that route. I'm really torn, I hate seeing gear my character actually needs go to someone who already has it or better equipped, but I also don't want to be a jerk rolling need on everything I'm eligible for. How are others handling it?