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by Anne Stickney 
Feb 15th 2012 at 1:00PM
My interactions with the Raid Finder have been limited, for the most part. I'm in a raiding guild, and we were told when the Raid Finder came out that we would do guild runs to start out with. This was to make sure that all drops benefited everyone in the guild, and honestly, it was a smart idea. Players got their set bonuses with relative speed, and we completed the encounters with no difficulty at all just due to the fact that they were relatively easy in comparison to the normal-mode raiding we were doing.
However, after we began melting more gear than we were keeping and started working on heroics in earnest, our raid leader let us know that if we really needed anything else from the Raid Finder, we'd have to go run it on our own. So it was with a fair amount of confidence that I queued up for Dragon Soul, looking for a trinket that was so far eluding my rogue in normal mode content. No big deal, right? Easy enough, and by now plenty of people ought to be familiar with the content. Well ... not so much.
However, after we began melting more gear than we were keeping and started working on heroics in earnest, our raid leader let us know that if we really needed anything else from the Raid Finder, we'd have to go run it on our own. So it was with a fair amount of confidence that I queued up for Dragon Soul, looking for a trinket that was so far eluding my rogue in normal mode content. No big deal, right? Easy enough, and by now plenty of people ought to be familiar with the content. Well ... not so much.
Big Bear Butt wrote an eloquent post explaining the phenomenon that I observed after stepping into my first non-guild Raid Finder group. You see, one generally expects that if a person doesn't need a piece of loot, they will pass on said loot and let someone that needs it have it for an upgrade. It's the nice and polite thing to do, right? Well, instead, a lot of Raid Finder players are simply rolling need on every piece of gear they can get their hands on, regardless of whether or not it's an upgrade. They are rolling need on gear they already have equipped. Why?
Because in their infinite wisdom, these players have decided to try and land these loot pieces as bartering chips in a game of You Got the Loot I Want, I Have the Loot You Need -- Let's Trade. So instead of a normal raid, where the fights are the most difficult part of the encounter, looting is now a complex series of "I want that trinket. Do you want this tier? I'll trade this tier for that trinket." But the trinket winner doesn't need the tier, however, the person who won a weapon that the trinket winner needs does need tier, so the trinket winner trades for tier and then trades that tier to the weapon winner so the weapon winner has tier, the trinket winner has weapon, and tier winner has trinket.
And if you managed to make it through that last sentence without having your eyes slowly cross in confusion, bless you. But Big Bear Butt does bring up the conundrum and wonders if this is going to be the face of the Raid Finder from now on. He also wonders what can be done about it -- and I don't think I have an answer for that question. Sure, Blizzard could place more limitations on loot, but that still wouldn't stop people from rolling on what they've already got.
One solution suggested is for the loot system to simply ignore players who have obviously already won loot that drops. So if you picked up the unique-equipped Wrath of Unchaining and happen to be wearing it, the option to roll on it will not pop up for you. But then people might just hide their gear in their bags and equip suboptimal gear. So what then? Do you have the loot system check the player's inventory, including anything they may have in their bank? Do you have the loot system create a database, a list of everything a player has won, and exclude them from rolling on an item that is already on that list?
There's a far easier solution, and sadly, I don't think it's going to ever catch on. It's called Don't Roll Need on Items You Don't Need. It's the solution where people treat people as human beings, rather than objects standing between them and profit. It's the solution of personal accountability, in which a player asks themselves if it's right to do this -- and the answer is automatically no, not "Well, everyone else is doing it, so I'm going to do it too."
Brace yourselves for what could be some of most exciting updates to the game recently with patch 4.3. Review the official patch notes, and then dig into what's ahead: new item storage options, cross-realm raiding, cosmetic armor skinning and your chance to battle the mighty Deathwing -- from astride his back!
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion
Reader Comments (Page 5 of 6)
madfigs Feb 15th 2012 1:58PM
Congratulations on being part of the problem!
Chance Feb 15th 2012 1:45PM
I did LFR on my warlock recently. It was my main through t11 but was retired when FL came out cause my group needed a tank. He's lost the roll on every shoulder piece that dropped in t11, it was a total of 14 lost rolls to random pugs we'd bring in to fill out the 10th slot in our raid. Well he just lost the shoulder token for LFR twice to a priest with 397 shoulders equipped. Lost the trinket to a mage with a 397 trinket (my lock is still rockin the Bell from Atramedes and stump of time) he lost the legs to a pally tank that already had 384 prot legs and 397 ret legs (the tank was switching to ret for most fights).
Needless to say, I feel the pain of others who are trying to get some decent gear through LFR but are passed up by people needing on loot for bartering purposes. What makes it even worse is that if the gear the people want doesn't drop they won't redistribute the loot they won and will simply vendor it for a few gold.
After that LFR run, where my severely under geared warlock managed to be in the top 5 damage done but was screwed over for every piece of gear, I have decided to retire him again. I don't have a group that needs dps and don't want the frustration of losing shoulders for a 17th time again. He'll end Cataclysm with his 346 JP shoulders. XD
Starlin Feb 15th 2012 1:49PM
This is unfortunate, but regardless of current gear, everyone has a right to roll on gear that drops from a boss they helped kill. Whether they plan to use it to barter with or for offspec gear or even a different reforge set, it's all irrelevant. They showed up and helped kill. That said, I pass on anything I don't need.
The adjustments of reducing the trade timer and removing vendor prices are decent ideas.
The real problem I see is the prevalence of tier tokens in LFR. The point of putting the tier back in the raid is completely lost with them being available from LFR. Let's go back to shoulders and helms only. And get them out of LFR.
GhostWhoWalks Feb 15th 2012 1:51PM
The problem with Raid Finder loot is that, even without the trading, it's an almost complete gamble to get what you want; not only do you have to hope the item you want drops, but you have to hope you win the roll against however many of the other 24 people can also roll on it. This is compounded by the fact that if you're the slightest bit unlucky, you have to wait a whole week to try again. I've run the second half of Raid Finder Dragon Soul for about 9 weeks now, trying to get my hands on a Gurthalak, and if it even drops, someone else invariably wins it. (the highlight being the week that a Fury Warrior won it and already had one, so now he got to enjoy having 2 while I still had none)
There's got to be a bit more consistency and control in how loot can be won from this thing, or we'll continue having this loot trading, roll bonus and class restriction nonsense.
btnhvw Feb 15th 2012 2:50PM
I made a ticket to blizz about this and they said they don't get involved with ninja looting and I should post comments in their forums about it... Nice response blizz.
ravyynn Feb 15th 2012 2:21PM
@madfigs...if your response was addressed to me I don't see how I add to 'the problem'. I raid with a druid that is both balance/feral and I switch between them depending on the need of the group. So for me to roll need on class items makes sense. I don't roll on tank gear because I don't use it. HOWEVER if rolling on everything, now that I see how it really works, (thanks to all the info here) is unfair or adds to the problem well sorry but until it is fixed by Blizz then that's just how it's gonna have to be.
ravyynn Feb 15th 2012 2:27PM
No idea why my previous comment was downgraded? Really?
Chetti Feb 15th 2012 2:38PM
I avoided LFR like the plague when it first came out. I was still relatively new to raiding, the guild I'm in had started firelands late, and that was the first raid experience I got to have while it was relevant content. The night I first raided with this guild we did BWD, so that was my first raid *EVER*, but.. it wasn't current. I had just settled into a 10 man group, with nice people that make raiding fun. I wasn't looking forward to running head-first into new content with 24 of my closest strangers who are all going to be yelling and screaming about whatever it is they find to yell and scream about. I figured we'd finish up what we were going to do in firelands and mosey into DS after we hit up the new heroics for whatever we could get from those. I knew there would be people "brave enough" (my words, they laughed) to run into LFR, but it wasn't something I thought I'd have to deal with. But after like 2 weeks when the majority of the 10 man team had LFR gear and I didn't, and it reflected in my dps, I knew I had to suck it up and go. I never queue for anything without at least 1 guildie, and for LFR its not hard to find 2-3 that will go.
I've had so-so luck with drops though. I *still* have no 4-set. I try, but haven't won the head or shoulder token. In the time though, I have gotten a few pieces: the dps dagger, the chest token, somethin else I think. I have a 2-set bonus since I was able to nab the token in normal mode, but I'd reeeally like my 4-set.
There will always be loot issues everywhere there is loot. I've been in 5-mans were people complain, put 25 (random) people in a group and even more issues are bound to come up. I've seen lots of good ideas on this thread though. My favorites are no/low vendor price and auto-pass or no need button on things you've already won like the seasonal bosses. No telling if the LFR loot rules will change come the next expansion when there is a new raid in there, but I hope they do something. Somehow though, I think that there will always be some type of loot drama. I think the roll+ thing is a good idea, giving an edge to the role that the item is tagged for, and a step in the right direction. That system has to be complex due to the fact they've made it such that both certain dps classes and all healing classes use spirit items, and I've seen that the roll+ works as intended (where I get the + on not-healy gear). They've got a good base, it just needs tweaked.
Narayana Feb 15th 2012 2:59PM
I am all about personal accountability. We've already seen what can happen when the system is responsible for determining loot eligibility. The class restrictions on pretty much everything in LFR is generally OK, but there are some cases where it's broken. If I want a piece of gear for transmog or a trinket that is "ok but not ideal" (perhaps an intellect trinket with a spirit proc for a mage/warlock) and no one else in the raid ACTUALLY needs it, shouldn't I be able to get it? Anything more restrictive than this and we start getting into a very weird place.
As it stands, my mage needs very little from RF. He's 4/5 on tier, has the dagger of Madness, one of the RF trinkets and he's got 397 ring, back, neck, boots, wand, and belt. I can only control what I do, so I do what I hope other will do: I roll only on what I actually need and hope for the best. Does it bug me when someone wins the trinket I'm after? A little, but I would feel even grosser if I got the trinket because I needed on my chest token and traded it.
Lockefeller Feb 15th 2012 3:20PM
I like the gold for passing or not getting loot idea. I run RF on my geared toons just to work on my rotation/priority, try out new spec adjustments, etc... I don't roll on loot because I don't need any of it. Unless a friend is with me and I'll roll to help him out.
Quality players who run RF benefit and help make up for all the noobs in there and they should be compensated somehow. If there was even a minor reward to running RF outside of just getting gimped loot the whole system would improve.
Stilhelm Feb 15th 2012 4:33PM
You get valor points from LFR runs, which can be turned into gold (BOE boots/bracers) if you no longer need any valor point gear. Valor points can also be converted 1:1 to conquest points, so you can possibly improve your pvp set as well, if you only do pvp somewhat casually.
zzrryll Feb 15th 2012 3:26PM
When I join a LFR looking for a specific item I tend to need to items I already have.
1) If an item I need drops, and I win, I trade the item I didn't actually need to someone that does.
2) If an item I need drops and I lose, I will try to bargain with the winner, with the item I didn't need. If they won't trade I still trade the item I didn't actually need to someone that does.
In my opinion that's a fairly valid way of using the tools provided to achieve the best possible outcome.
Tanddori Feb 15th 2012 3:26PM
After reading this article, I decided to give LFR one more chance after having avoided it for 4 weeks or so.
My faith in humanity has not been restored, to say the least.
The pants token drops off the 3rd boss, goes to a priest who is already decked out in 397 4 piece set. I whisper him, asking if I can have it since he does not need it. His response?
I quote:
"I'd rather have the 5 gold than see you get an upgrade".
and that was the last time I ever ran LFR.
Jyotai Feb 15th 2012 6:01PM
Yep.
I see this a lot.
People getting start raving foul mouthed TOS-violating abusive angry when a person on low gear wins... get this... an upgrade.
When the people who most need an item win it, you'll often see 3 or 4 people rant for minutes on hand about 'WTF blizz giving lootz to terribads'...
Some people do in fact roll just for the purpose of making sure that the folks on the bottom of the DPS or healing meter -stay there-.
Its a very weird mentality, but if you call them on it, you end up with another 4 or 5 joining in agreeing with them...
Prelimar Feb 15th 2012 3:52PM
i have had another mage (because mages rule that way) offer me a shoulder drop because (i assume) he needed on reflex, and didn't need them. so, nice people are out there.
to be honest, i've needed every time there's been gear i can use, because my gear is changing so quickly these days i can't recall just what i have on the fly. easier to need-roll it and figure it out later. thanks to this piece, though, i'll try to be more conscious, and if i DO get something i already have it (or better), i'll try to offer it to those who can use it.
Morgatho Feb 15th 2012 3:53PM
I run a small guild and as of right now all we can do is LFR. What we do is if an item one of us can use drops, everyone that can roll need needs on it to try and win it for them. It doesn't sound very nice to the other people, but then again its not as bad as what was described above.
Camo Feb 15th 2012 4:01PM
The main problem with not rolling is that you give up your chance and get nothing in return.
Lyxi had a pretty good idea on how to handle loot: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3313133182
US mirror post: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4015353661
Tom Feb 15th 2012 4:03PM
Limit the amount of 'needs' per character per LFR to 1
Michael Feb 15th 2012 4:16PM
Absolutely positively NOT!
That would create all kinds of problems. I'm screwed out of getting a piece I wanted most from the last boss of the raid because I didn't know that it would drop? Or I get screwed and have to wait weeks on end for the drop I want, and get no gear, because I pass on every other upgrade in hopes that I can get it.
Just let it all go. None of this gear is truly necessary. None of it is something that any of us have to have.
I think the most constructive comment I've seen all day has to do with how we view LFR loot. Think of LFR like a VP run, and any loot we get is just a bonus. I think the biggest problem with LFR loot is that it's fundamentally different from 5-man and normal raiding loot. In 5-man, you don't really have competition usually. In normal raiding, the looting is set up by the group.
GhostWhoWalks Feb 15th 2012 7:24PM
Hey Michael, do keep in mind that LFR provides people with some rather unique pieces of gear that are flat-out better and cooler than anything available in dungeons, like the weapons from Madness, can fill slots that are not provided by the VP vendor (shoulders, anyone?) and give the player a shot at the coveted tier bonuses.
VP is great and all, but I'm already reaching the point where I can't get any more significant upgrades from the VP vendor; if I want to continue getting stronger, I HAVE to get some of these drops off of Dragon Soul, and until PuGs become more feasible on my server, I'm limited to the Raid Finder.