Does a video game have to force us to make good choices?
Is that politician in the wrong? Or is that politician simply learning that if he behaves badly, he'll get a bribe to start behaving correctly? What's to stop him from behaving badly again, if he thinks he's going to get another $3 million out of the deal? More importantly, if all the other politicians out there see this guy get a bribe to behave like a decent politician and all of those politicians decide to start behaving badly in an effort to get that bribe for themselves, are they in the wrong?

Last week, we touched on the bizarre antics of those in the Raid Finder -- specifically those who choose to roll on whatever loot they can get their hands on, regardless of whether or not they already have it, in order to trade it for what they really want. Big Bear Butt discussed the topic in detail, and offered a few solutions to it as well, and I tried to come up with some solutions on my own. But what I ultimately suggested in that post was that people should simply roll need on items that they actually needed and stop rolling on gear that they don't actually need. The comments for that post blew me away -- and not in a good way.
There were a lot of people who suggested there should be some incentive not to roll need on gear, like rewarding gold to players who pass on gear or don't roll need on something. And this is where we go back to the story of the politician. There is a fine line between rewarding someone for a job well done and bribing someone in an effort to get them to act like a decent human being. And maybe it's just an issue of our society, but I don't believe that Blizzard should be responsible for making us act like decent human beings. I don't think we need a video game company to force us to use our innate moral compasses and reward us when we use that moral compass correctly.
... which takes us back to Big Bear Butt again, oddly enough, and a little post he wrote this weekend on motivation. Now, this post isn't so much about loot or rolling on loot as it is on performing to the best of your abilities in a raid or a group. And Big Bear Butt's got some highly entertaining suggestions for motivating those who do less than stellar DPS. While it's not necessarily a bad idea, at the same time, I can't help but wonder -- if you are in a dungeon or a raid and not doing your job, why are you there?

Here's the deal with World of Warcraft and how you play the game, OK? You level your character and get better loot so you can continue to level your character and get even better loot. Once you're at the endgame, you do heroics to get better loot to get even better. Once you're better, you can move on to raiding and get even more neat loot so that you get even better and continue to the next tier to get more loot.
It's a cycle. It's a never ending cycle of gearing up to do things to gear up so that you can do more things. The reason you are getting that loot is so that you can DPS better, heal better, tank better -- whatever your particular role is, gear will help you do it better. So if you're simply standing around waiting for the boss to die and not even trying to help kill it, then collecting as much gear as you can ... why are you collecting the gear? Is it for the job you aren't even doing in the first place?
What motivates you to play? Why are you playing the game, and why are you after the gear? I'm a raider. I raid in a guild that is fairly progressive, so one of my main focuses with my character is to squeeze out every last drop of DPS I possibly can. That's why I'm getting my gear. And I know once I have decent gear, I'll be good to go as far as leveling in the next expansion goes, too. But even without the really good raiding gear, I'd be just as fine in whatever purples I could pick up from heroics. Blizzard's pretty good about making sure people aren't left behind when an expansion launches and providing upgrades of every shape and size.
Those are my reasons, though -- and in those reasons is the motivation for why I do what I do. I am perfectly happy to do as much damage as I possibly can, because that's where the fun is. That's why I play. So what's up with the people that stand around and do nothing on boss fights in the Raid Finder or in heroic dungeons? Is it simply that they don't care what they do or that they're really just out to make the lives of everyone else as miserable as possible?
And if it's the latter, why are we putting up with it?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Jon Feb 20th 2012 2:10PM
The best way to approach raid finder is for the raiding experience (and valor points). If you are only running it for gear - you will be extremely disheartened. Of course, that's usually the case for any raid. Raiding JUST FOR GEAR is not going to keep you interested for long enough. You have to enjoy the raid itself.
That being said, a better way to enjoy raiding is going to be with a guild you know and trust. The LFD loot system has always had its share of problems, it's only magnified in LFR. It's going to be a cold day in hell before people stop being selfish; the only thing you can do to avoid it is to bring your own raid with you. Or just hit need on everything and roll with the punches.
Perhaps LFR is Blizzard's way of saying "Here's some motivation to find a guild to do this with."
Moeru Feb 20th 2012 2:15PM
Agreed. I've been preaching this for years to various guilds I've lead raids for. If you're coming to the raids just for gear, you're not going to enjoy it very long, and for me as a raid leader, I don't need people dropping when they get all their pieces. I need people who enjoy the act of raiding and want to commit to a group.
Gear comes and goes, but good people are hard to find.
Zanathos Feb 20th 2012 2:10PM
Some men just want to see the world (of warcraft) burn.
pace9 Feb 20th 2012 2:12PM
(after reading your example about loot) I totally agree with your argument that creating an incentive to act in good faith can turn into an incentive to misbehave in the future.
However, I have another solution to the raid finder loot issue (and it doesn't give people a reason to misbehaving in the future):
If an someone wins an item from a need roll in raid finder, it should be impossible to trade to others in the group (or at all for that matter), impossible to disenchant, and impossible to sell to a vendor.
^^this wold mean that there is absolutely no benefit to needing on an item you don't need.
Furthermore, this system could be expanded to the dungeon finder so that pug item theft could drop a bit too.
pace9 Feb 20th 2012 2:14PM
To add to that, we could make raid finder gear that is greeded turn BOE so there is a gold incentive to roll greed.
Skye Feb 20th 2012 4:14PM
I agree that the ability to trade should be turned off in LFR but disagree in LFD. I do agree that the ability to DE an item won on a need roll should be turned off for both.
apollyonnovus Feb 20th 2012 2:17PM
"And if it's the latter, why are we putting up with it?"
In a world of "Can't vote to kick members while there is loot to roll" and "Can't vote to kick members while in combat" what options are there other than put up with it?
I'd love an answer to this, but short of not doing raid finder (et al) what are the options for the rest of us?
The last Raid Finder I did had the infamous "Afkwonthelp", it took us all the way from the end of Ultraxion all the way to madness before we managed to kick him. As soon as a boss dropped, it's looted immediately, as soon as loot was done, he immediately started the next fight, which put us in combat, and unable to kick. The only reason we managed to kick him was enough of us took the portal back to the temple, and waited for a wipe, so we could kick him.
I haven't stepped foot inside Raid Finder for a month now, because it's not worth dealing with that.
What CAN we do?
Kelly Feb 20th 2012 2:18PM
"And if it's the latter, why are we putting up with it?"
Because, as a group, we don't have the ability to kick someone. No, I don't mean we don't have the tools (the vote-to-kick system is the tool), we don't have... well... the "cojones" to go through with it.
I was in an LFR the other day. I was on an alt and a tier-piece dropped. A tier piece that I NEEDED (it was my shoulders and I'm still rocking my damn 377 shoulders because I needed the ilvl to get me into HoT dungeons where I replaced almost all of my other gear, but couldn't get those to drop.
Another mage needed and won that item. I quickly checked their gear: 397 tier piece. Then I saw the tuth - They had a mage guildie with them.
I quickly told the group that we had a ninja. Several people agreed with me. So, I suggested a kick, I even used the VTK system. Next pull, they're still in the dungeon. When we killed Hagara ANOTHER PAIR OF TIER SHOULDERS dropped. "This is my chance" I thought to myself. Nope. SAME MAGE WON THOSE TOO!
Sure, we COULD have kicked them. We SHOULD have kicked them. But nope. As a group, we didn't have the guts to do what was "right", and that is: Keeping our LFR runs clear of ninjas.
There are several ways to fix this, none of which Blizzard will implement. A couple of ways real quick: Make the gear non-tradeable, and another is for Blizzard to say "You have that item or better, you don't need this gear, so you can only roll greed on it". Again, Blizz won't do either, because they don't have the guts to keep the LFR running smoothly. It's actually better for them to have ninjas, because now I'm forced to run the LFR again in an attempt to get "piece of gear X".
Lipstick Feb 20th 2012 2:45PM
I'm sorry for your bad experience. The truth is however, that it's difficult to always tell whose right and whose wrong when someone yells "Ninja". I've had people accuse -me- of being a Ninja when I won a lower ilvel trinket, that was actually -better- for my class then what I had, had previously and is currently and was right then and there equipped. Why? Because someone else wanted what I won, fairly by simply rolling on it.
Should I have passed it over because someone else had worse gear than my own, by pure item levels. Some might say yes, and that I was being greedy for rolling. But I don't and didn't see it their way, because I don't cue up in LFR to gear somebody else's character I do it to gear my own. If we were guildees in our own, normal mode run -- sure, I might pass -- because that upgrade still stays in my guild -- it goes to someone who helps our -team- progress. But I run LFR to gear myself, and no one else, and I do only roll on what is an upgrade for me and what I plan to use. Item levels are irrelevant to me for some items, as some procs are worth more than an ilvl difference.
I've also seen people attack those on their same tier token for low dps, low healing, or being a ninja just so they are vote/kicked removed from group so there is less chance if their item drops they'll have that other person rolling against them.
It's absolutely scandalous how some people behave.
So unfortunately while I understand where you are coming from, it's difficult for anyone in LFR to always know if your side of the story is the correct or right story. Which is why I rarely vote to kick anyone unless they are doing something to willfully wipe our group.
jfofla Feb 20th 2012 3:12PM
You clearly do not understand what a Ninja is. Winning loot in a fair roll that takes place within the game is not being a Ninja.
terph Feb 20th 2012 3:16PM
I'll be honest, I don't feel bad rolling on a piece of gear to help a friend or guildie. I've done it before, and I've been helped out the same way. After a while, it almost feels like "us against them." I know it's a bad attitude to have, but after seeing people act nasty, entitled and barely even try to play...you get biased. And who doesn't want to help their friends and teammates get geared?
I've also rolled on tier pieces in LFR to build up my off-spec. My heal set was not good enough for LFR, but my DPS set is rocking. So yes, I'm sure people saw someone with 397 pieces rolling on tier sets and thought "filthy ninja". But I was just trying to get my holy set to a useable state without holding people back. I'm sure they'd rather me pull high numbers and get the boss down instead of having a pathetic healer that lets the group die.
But do I roll on stuff just to vendor it? No. I do try to make sure there's a real purpose for everything I've rolled on. And I'll quietly pass it along a healer piece if I see that there was someone who needed it for a main spec. After all, I don't heal very often. But even that I do privately. I don't want to encourage gear begging.
Darkke Feb 20th 2012 3:33PM
You touch on some good points in here, but I think you're underestimating the work that some of these fixes would take.
For an example, I'm a druid that enjoys playing 3 of my 4 available specs. Let's say that I'm running a feral dps spec, but usually I run feral tank. If I leave my dedicated tank shoulders in my bag, and use a lower iLvl set dedicated to kitty dps, should I be allowed to roll on a kitty upgrade? Even if blizzard's system detected iLvl in my bags? What if I pvp, and have those high iLvl shoulders in my bag?
I think BOP, non-tradeable drops would probably be the best solution, but who knows how difficult (or simple) that would be to implement?
I have benefited from the Raid Finder. I'm glad Blizzard released it. My only wish is that it would feel more like a finished product, as opposed to a beta for RF in Mists of Pandara
Quaza Feb 20th 2012 5:07PM
"I think BOP, non-tradeable drops would probably be the best solution, but who knows how difficult (or simple) that would be to implement?"
Quite simple really; disabling the 2-hour trade rule.
Luotian Feb 20th 2012 6:11PM
I really can't be the only person in the world that doesn't do this. If someone wins a piece I wanted I don't check their gear! I don't care what they have. We all had the exact same chance to win an item. They did, I didn't, end of story. Their reasons simply have no effect on my game, and calling them out won't get me my item. It won't make them stop next time. It just makes you look like a whiny jerk who's typing in raid chat when they should be doing their job.
It isn't the people that win that go on my ignore list; people who are sore losers get /ignored.
The only time at all that I look at gear in LFR is if another hunter is beating me on the DPS meters. I want to see their spec and, if they're not SV, I want to compare gear. Simply put, I want to see what they're doing that I'm not that I could do better to be like them.
GhostWhoWalks Feb 20th 2012 2:20PM
I think part of the problem is that people forget that you collect gear in order to improve their performance; those who are just standing around during boss fights and letting other people carry them seem to be in it just for the cool-looking gear. Once they have it, there's a good chance they'll just sit around in Orgrimmar/Stormwind saying "look how cool I am" without any intention of actually doing something useful with that cool gear.
That said, I don't think the answer is forcing them to behave correctly. Like the politician used in the example, they don't learn to stop being assholes, they just learn that being an asshole gets people to bribe you to stop, so you be nice for alittle while and then go back to being an asshole just waiting for the next bribe.
jamison Feb 20th 2012 2:38PM
Interesting column as always. In my old age and decrepitude I've come to the conclusion that you can't make people be nice, behave, etc. if they are not inclined to do so already.
Among the activities I enjoy in the game I really liked healing. There's a strategy to getting everyone though an instance alive. Loot or gear has never been a big motivator. I have found though as I level up the pugs aren't much fun since people get so unpleasant. Other than going with a group I know I've been spending time with other activities and getting my healing out in battle grounds or people I meet while herb collecting. After a certain level I tend to only do dungeons with guild or people I know.
I don't think there is a "fix" other than finding a good community.
Rekkla Feb 20th 2012 2:28PM
While it's true there's only so much you can do to legislate good behaviour, I would applaud any effort Blizz takes to make the LFR experience a more pleasent one.
But I think debates like this often miss the point of how much of a good thing the existence of this system is at all. The LFR system, despite exposing us to a few more bad apples then we're accustomed to seeing, has been a massive boon to quality-of-life within WoW for the majority of those who choose to use it - whether they admit so or not.
Casuals get to see content much faster (or in some cases, at all) than they otherwise would, competitive raiders can hit their 4pc faster (which was key for tanks this patch), and alt levelling lovers can make their multitude of toons hit and heal harder than ever before. This has been a difference-maker for most players at level 85 - and a godsend for those of us who play on lowpop realms.
TLDR: Even with douchey tier-traders, you still have a chance to get 384 tier gear and the awesome set bonuses it entails - whereas before we had no chance of this privelege at all.
Aaron Feb 20th 2012 8:06PM
Well said. If not for LFR, those of us who can't guild-raid (erratic schedule, etc. etc.) would be in the exact same spot as the lazy sack Anne describes. If this is the last tier of content that I can reach, and I've already beaten everything once, why continue?
Grovinofdarkhour Feb 20th 2012 2:33PM
I'll place my bet here and now: they're eventually going to have to make it so that you can't roll need on an item that might be completely appropriate to your class and spec if what you're wearing is a higher item level.
Darkke Feb 20th 2012 3:52PM
I mentioned this in a reply to another poster, but unless it detects items in your bag as well, that will be worthless.
Particularly, as a feral druid, this would make my life a living hell trying to build up both my feral specs especially if it detected items in bags. Devil's advocating to myself, though, That may be why they're adding a fourth tree for druids, or a benefit of that decision. There would be other problems with PVP gear as well. IMO pieces in RF will become untradeable in the future.