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by Dan Desmond 
Feb 21st 2012 at 6:00PM
Well, it seems I was wrong, for in the very next tier of content Blizzard released, we saw progressive nerfs to these difficult fights. Personally, I prefer to keep these encounters the way they are, at least until a new tier is released. Something just feels wrong to see the hardest fights available made easier through a series of hotfixes. Even with respect to my own guild's progression, having sweeping nerfs hit Firelands just as my guild was putting in some really good attempts on Ragnaros felt like Blizzard moved the finish line, taking what would have been a very gratifying kill and turning it into an accidental one-shot that contained none of the catharsis we had felt during previous boss kills.
What do you think? With the Raid Finder now a reality and a new expansion looming on the horizon, do you think the difficulty of heroic raid encounters should be static, like those from tier 11, or should they be more flexible?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Raiding, Achievements, Cataclysm, Mists of Pandaria
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Pyromelter Feb 21st 2012 8:33PM
"Even with respect to my own guild's progression, having sweeping nerfs hit Firelands just as my guild was putting in some really good attempts on Ragnaros felt like Blizzard moved the finish line, taking what would have been a very gratifying kill and turning it into an accidental one-shot that contained none of the catharsis we had felt during previous boss kills."
Sorry to be blunt, but if blizzard moves the finish line before you cross it, then you just weren't good enough soon enough. Your guild was likely in a very, very small cross-section of raiders that were good enough to push heroic ragnoros but not quite down him.
I agree with the general premise, that heroic modes should stay relatively difficult, firelands likely was over-nerfed.
James G Bentley Feb 21st 2012 8:43PM
Heroic modes should be nerfed the same amount as normal modes are nerfed. If anything, the people who are doing normal modes are not grinding their heads against a single boss encounter four hours a night 4 nights a week. That's what the heroic mode raiders do, and they are the ones who most benefit from the nerfs. A guild who can't kill normal spine of deathwing, the problem isn't that everything has 5% too much health and does 5% too much damage, the problem is they aren't playing very well. A guild who can't kill hc spine of deathwing may actually see a real benefit from that 5% nerf as they are all playing closer to their maximum potential.
The absolute elite of the elite kill all the hc modes before the nerfs anyway, it's only the world top 50-100 or so that I would say get a little gipped by these nerfs as the top 50 have already cleared everything and 101-700 are the ones who need nerfs to hc mode in order to keep progressing.
Kenneth Feb 21st 2012 9:13PM
Finally, a posting that finally gets it right. Heroic modes should be very difficult, hence why they created them in the first place. And yet, for some unknown reason, Blizzard decides to listen to the vocal minority and nerf it at a random time just so people can get the kill. As it has been stated a few times in the comment section, there should only be a nerf to the hardest content when a new expansion comes out. If people want to "see" the content, then they can just simply watch it on YouTube or do it on the ever-so-easy Raid Finder.
arawn.chernobog Feb 21st 2012 10:01PM
If you want to be the super special "did the hard mode like a boss" snowflake then get a high end raiding guild and beat the Heroic modes before the nerf... you know... the way a prog-raiding guild is EXPECTED TO DO - oh what's that? "If they nerf it later then everyone gets the achievement I got and I'm not special anymore" - Yeah guess not, I mean... getting to beat the content earlier then the vast vast vast majority of around 10 million players? Oh man, I'd feel so boring and common too...
Snuzzle Feb 22nd 2012 8:09AM
Yes... but give them some time before the nerfs is all we're saying. Nerf them when a new tier is released/ about to be released, not a couple weeks into the new content.
detailbear Feb 22nd 2012 7:53PM
@Snuzzle: Heroic MoDW first kill was December 20. That was 2 months ago. Hardly "a couple of weeks [in]". I'll say more about nerfs in particular later, but we could be getting beta of MoP in March. The clock is ticking.
Evelinda Feb 21st 2012 10:11PM
I just don't understand WHY across the board nerfs on heroic modes would be necessary. If you want to see the content, run raid finder. If you want better gear, run normal. And if you want to pit yourself against the most challenging content the game has to offer, run heroics.
There's just no need to nerf heroics to get more people into them, because people can see the content other ways. Sure, if there's a lot of guilds hitting walls in normal modes, then nerf normal modes. But if people can't hack the ultimate difficulty setting, there's nothing forcing them to do it. They can down normal ragnaros, or normal madness, or normal king of the sha (whoever the boss of MoP's raids may be).
And I'm saying this as someone who will NEVER be a heroic raider. I run rf now, and imagine I'll do the same in MoP. Maybe I'll be in a position to run normals with a guild, and if I do, i'll feel satisfied with being able to do that. I won't expect blizzard to lower the bar on a completely optional difficulty level.
Snuzzle Feb 22nd 2012 8:10AM
You get it. This guy gets it, y'all.
Revynn Feb 21st 2012 11:57PM
IMO, the heart of the problem lies in the fact that everyone wants to run with the big boys (where that line is drawn is up to you) but most people simply can't. Whether the reason for that is a lack of time (the "I play an hour a week" crowd), skill or dedication, western society in recent generations is one that has been raised to believe that we're all special snowflakes and we all deserve to be rock stars and pretty princess's and be rich and famous and have the world handed to us on a platter because we're special and unique and beautiful and how dare anyone say otherwise. Unfortunately this presents a problem when suddenly someone finds themself incapable of doing something. Can't down a boss? Well, clearly it's because the fight is too hard. /whine on forums. Got wrecked in PvP? It's not cause I suck and I'm wearing dungeon blues. It's because Paladins/Death Knights/whatever class I lost to is overpowered! /whine on forums. Can't queue for the Raid Finder because my gear isn't good enough? Rubbish! My gear is good enough for standing around in Orgrimmar so it must be good enough for killing Death Wing. Therefore the problem must be that Blizzard is catering to the elitists that have no life.
People just need to learn to accept that they have limitations and either work to overcome them or shut their traps. My guild never killed Heroic Rag (we stopped at 6/7-H) and while it was the thing I wanted most out of T12, I can readily admit that it won't happen until MoP when it's easily facerolled because we just aren't good enough. The first step to getting better is acknowledging that you need to get better, not putting on your "I'm a special and unique snowflake" t-shirt and throwing blame around.
Pyromelter Feb 22nd 2012 1:25AM
There is a rather significant amount of "upper middle class" type guilds that would love to be 7/7. Blizzard is trying more and more to cater to its masses. You can either be grateful that blizzard makes things manageable for you, or you can whine like Desmond about how he could have 7/7 if he juuuuuuuuuuuuuuust had another week. Or maybe another week, or another.
Matt Feb 22nd 2012 12:44AM
Just because the top 20 or 30 or even 100 guilds can clear heroic in a matter of weeks, doesn't mean the next 100 guilds after them can. It's no fun for a guild to sit on 6/8 hm's and bash their facees against the last 2 hm's for several months until the end of an expac. Let's face it. If the game isn't fun, people won't play it.
kuri Feb 22nd 2012 1:12AM
You mean H LK?
andysdavis Feb 22nd 2012 1:46AM
Personally I'd like to see the return of Ulduar style heroic modes where you have to do something in order to initiate the heroic setting, as opposed to flipping a switch before you enter and everything is suddenly more difficult than it was on normal. I think this gives people more options when it comes to raiding so that if they're hitting a wall on a heroic attempt they can choose to either continue hitting that wall in hopes of finally breaking it or instead to say "screw it, lets just down this guy regularly without doing X thing so that we can move on to the next guy." I feel these type of "heroic" encounters make for a more engaging and overall enjoyable experience as opposed to some of the ICC style heroic encounters where bosses just have more hp and hit a ton harder so your healers are pulling their hair out and screaming obscenities over vent because the tank just got globalled again.
But in terms of actually nerfing the content, I don't think they should be nerfed directly but I liked the way Blizz handled ICC with the 30% buff, and I think they should continue in that style if they don't reintroduce Ulduar style heroic modes. It offers raiders a choice to use the buff if they're struggling on a certain encounter or turn it off if they'd rather try the encounter as it was originally designed.
Paul Feb 22nd 2012 2:16AM
So would I, but it's impractical. It increases balance issues and development time. Ulduar took a loooong time to get released, and considering the raids that came before it, it's comfortable for me to say that they begun Ulduar many months before Wrath was released.
It sounds like Blizzard will be reintroducing optional bosses in MoP, though. Hopefully they will have player triggered events in these fights since they wont effect progression and will be minimal in quantity compared to progression encounters.
Paul Feb 22nd 2012 2:13AM
I'm inclined to say that both Normal and Heroic should be left alone. Reaching 'roadblocks' during progression in either of these two modes is suppose to incentivise players to improve themselves or do some research (i.e. interact with the community) to get past it.
Balance nerfs are a different issue. If an encounter is overtuned, i.e. if Morchok was harder than anything that came after him, then nerfing is understandable.
If getting stuck at a certain point is frustrating, then the player should do what they do with any other game, and lower the difficulty themselves. This provides the satisfaction of "beating" content, but comes at the price of less reward.
This has been the fundermental basics of gaming for decades and I really don't understand why every version of content should be deemed beatable while it is relevant by everyone that is attempting it.
Game difficulty, especially in a raid guild setting, is one of the most effective means of turning a bad player into a competant player. Luckily the progressive buff/debuff system doesn't change the way a raid is punished by their mistakes (not attacking the elementium bolt will kill you with or without progressive nerfing. But if a guild was struggling with the berserk timer one week, they shouldn't end up being able to beat the encounter the following week while missing 1 DPS. It's detrimental to the content.
Finally, in an environment where a progression buff/debuff system must happen, it really should be a decision to turn it on, not a decision to turn it off. a) because not everyone is aware that it's there (shock horror, lots of players don't read fansites and Blizzard announcements) and b) It's easier to leave things alone than it is to change. As I said earlier, tackling something on an easier setting should be a decision by the player, not by the developer (exception, genuine balance changes).
Naryn Feb 22nd 2012 2:36AM
Firstly, I think there shouldn't be any need for general across the board nerf's like they have done in Firelands and in DS, however if some specific heroic modes needs retuning then I think that is fine.
Basically I think heroic modes should get progressively more difficult, they should definitely not go from okay you can clear the first 4 pretty well but now you've hit a brick wall you'll never be able to overcome. In my opinion during the 5% nerfs only fights like Spine HC which stopped you being able to bring certain classes should be nerfed on heroic.
hokiebuddy Feb 22nd 2012 3:20AM
I have no problem with it, every guild has a different level of play, some are like professional sports teams and others are like a local downtown softball club with many different levels in the middle. Blizzard keeps the statistics and once these professional teams clear it and they notice that the next few levels down begin hitting a wall sometimes even gear won't be enough to progress so a nerf or buff is the obvious solution. WOW has changed over the years and the population that plays it is very different. And let's face it, even with the buff going all the way to 20 percent there will still be VERY few guilds that see heroic deathwing dead. So let's not sweat it and if you kill it before the nerf, give yourself a good pat on the back and show off the achievement, (you earned it!) and let other guilds who aren't as good as you have their moment in the sun eventually too.
DragonFireKai Feb 22nd 2012 6:07AM
In all honesty, look back at the tiers of raiding that most people found most enjoyable. Essentially, look at the Jeff Kaplan era of raid design, which covered the first eight tiers of raiding. BWL, Karazahn, SSC and TK, Black Temple, Ulduar, these are all examples of the model of raid design that blizzard should be trying to return to. While they were not without their flaws on release, Blizzard made some targeted adjustments on encounters such as Chromaggus, Kael, and XT hard mode, which were out of line with where they had intended those encounters to be, and then left the instances alone. Ulduar, in particular, was the manifestation of everything Kaplan's team had learned about raid design. It featured a large number of innovative encounters which spanned the difficulty curve from Flame Leviathan, which was affectionately dubbed "lootmobile" to Alone in the Darkness, a fight so difficult that only 13 guilds managed to defeat it before the release of the next tier of raiding. Guilds would go into Ulduar, and would always have a new challenge that seemed within reach, and while not every group would down Yogg-Saron, it marked the peak of WoW, both in terms of design, and in terms of subscribers.
After Ulduar, Kaplan was pulled from the lead game designer on WoW, and was tasked with running Project Titan. He was replace by Tom Chilton, who's list of raid tiers include ToC, Firelands, and Dragon Soul, the smallest, and most some of the least popular raid tiers in the history of the game. Chilton doesn't believe in properly tuning encounters, except in the most egregious examples. He simply hits the instance with blanket nerfs as a catchall. He has presided over a design team that has released less content over time than any time in the history of the game, and on his watch, the game has diminished, both in terms of quality and in terms of subscriptions.
Blizzard needs to get back to the Ulduar style of raid design, properly tuned instances with a smooth difficulty curve that ensures that all guilds will have encounters that will challenge and entertain them. They need to get away from the ToC, FL, DS model of small instances with a difficulty curve akin to to running into a brick wall where guilds lazily sashay their way through the instance until they hit Heroic Anub, or Heroic Lich King, or Heroic rag, or Heroic Spine, and they realize that despite how easy the previous boss was, this next encounter is completely beyond their abilities, and there's nothing else to work on, only to be stuck waiting until Chilton deigns to lower the next rung to within their reach.
William Poulter Feb 22nd 2012 6:45AM
Nerfing heroic - why shouldnt Blizzard do it
- It devalues heroic kills for guilds trying to push content and reduces their enjoyment of the game
- It gives the impression that "easy" is what the want - this is already impacting on 25 man heroic guilds, as fewer now exist and continued easy street is not helping them
- Why change it at all? If you fix an encounter because of a bug thats fair enough but once sorted why on earth change it - this just seems like Blizzard employees seeking extra work!
- The help websites rapidly fill with videos and tactics on how to kill at heroic WE DONT NEED blizzards help ....seriously watch the vids, practise the fight we will kill it in the end
- True progression heroic players get 10 times more pleasure from that hard fought kill after 100 tries than a bit of 410 epic gear - HONESTLY we do Blizzard.
In Summary
HANDS OFF OUR HERIOCS...LFR is great leave the players that dont enjoy 100 plus wipes there please...
thank you :-)
Zev Feb 22nd 2012 8:59AM
I think Blizzard should leave at least the Heroic difficulty untouched.
Seriously, it makes me a bit sad to see that they didn't learn yet how the human mind works.
A MMO should not be a democracy, where everyone can reach the Heroic modes, and everyone has the same Titles/Achievements/Mounts.
Blizzard can't promote the "everyone should see all content" trend by nerfing the content, and hope that people don't do the following:
1) rush trough content quicker than they can deliver;
2) get bored because there's nothing else to do pve-wise;
3) complain that the next patch is so far in the future;
4) unsubscribe till the next patch arrives;
5) complain again because the patch they deliver does not meet their standards.
I love this game, but I think they are managing it the wrong way.