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2-24-2012 @ 3:19PM
"And if you're going through the struggle of getting 25 people to work together, what you get out of that experience should be a greater reward than getting 10 people together, because it is far more difficult to pull together and work with 25 unique personalities than 10." From that line and from other inferences in your post, it seems to me your saying 25 man raids should get more because its harder to get 25 people online. I couldn't disagree more. If there is going to be a significant differance in 10 and 25, blizzard needs to do a much better job of balancing them against each other, as well as against the content. Personally i think they should drop it to 10 and 20 man raids. Fight requires 2 tanks on 10 man, then it requires 4 on 20 man. They are not balanced against each other when 10 man needs 2 tanks 3 heals, and 25 man needs 2 tanks 5 heals. I wont even get into personal responsibility in them..... 1 dps dead 2 mins in on a 10 man is a wipe, on 25, you lose 2-4 and its still winnable. Bottom line would be i agree with you, in that they need to do something, and im not sure what
2-24-2012 @ 3:25PM
Blizz devs have indicated that there are only so many unique mechanics they can run through involving so many tanks. Adds, multi-boss ("Conclave"), and tank swaps run out of originality pretty fast.
2-24-2012 @ 3:54PM
I just want to throw something in here on behalf of all 25-man heroic raiders.1 Dead Raider means a wipe. More often than not. Certainly two dead raiders is a wipe on *anything* that is truly progression content.The idea that you can have 1-2 die off in 25s and till finish just fine is a myth. If anything, it's worse in 25s. If every person screws up just once every 25 attempts, you'll fail the really hard heroics. On the other hand, if every person screws up just once every 25 attempts in 10 man, then 60% of your attempts will be successful. Also, anyone who did Yogg-Saron pre-nerf "I didn't stand in the gas cloud!" knows that it used to be even worse!
2-24-2012 @ 3:57PM
I disagree with Anne, 25 man raids do not need to embrace what is unique between the raids: the only thing that is different is the ratio of the roles, the quantity of loot, and the amount of people involved.In fact, the biggest perk I see of being in a 25 man is that you can gear up faster, you can get legendaries faster, and if you have an off night, someone else is able to make up the difference. In my 10 mans, if I'm not firing on all 10 cylinders, then a boss might not die. When I was in 25 mans, as long as I was in the top 10, no one said anything to me, even though it was obvious when I wasnt really concentrating.The reasons I dont do 25 mans anymore is the people issue. Getting 28 people (subs), all with geared offspecs, most with alts that perform different rolls than their mains, all with personalities that jive together.... its a monumental task. In fact, the reason I left my last guild, which was a 25 man guild, was because there were 5 people that insisted on acting like asses, talking about stuff that made me feel uncomfortable, and when it was brought up with officers, I was told to relax.I cant suggest any one thing that might fix it, but I think 25's already get everything extra that they should: its the community, or the lack thereof that is making 25s die and 10s flourish.
2-24-2012 @ 4:08PM
Geiss: they've already run out of unique situations when using 2 tanks. So why not change it up? Ultra already kinda has this in 25 man with extra people soaking the debuff. Nef had to have a DPS grab adds unless you brought a 3rd tank. My biggest problem with this whole thing is that some people seem to not get how hard it is for a guild to keep a 25 man roster. My guild has been unable to get close thanks to the 25 man guilds with their faster legendaries and faster hearing STEALING people from us. We get people geared up, start getting close to either 2 10 mans or being able to PUG the rest on a 25 and 2 or 3 leave because they get promised better loot. Personally, I think 25 man raids should just go the way of 40 mans. It feels more personal and heroic having a small strike team than a huge mob. I am pretty sure this is going I get me darkened fast by the 25 man elitists, but it's been how I feel for a while.
2-24-2012 @ 4:36PM
This 1 dead dps thing is NOT fault. Literally JUST a day ago I joined a group on a rogue that I had JUST leveled. They were only 1/8HM so they weren't exceptionally amazing or anything and we killed heroic 25man hagara with 2 dead dps and myself 3k dps below the lowest, barely above the tank. 25mans only harder pointer is the logistics of getting 25 people together. As for personal difficulty theres much more room for error, most 25s are fallling apart because a select few in the group always feel they were being forced to carry less skilled players so they form their own 10man.
2-24-2012 @ 4:45PM
@Me - My first foray into heroic raiding was against Halfus in T11. 5 SECONDS into the fight and I was tanking the floor (no explanation meant I attacked a drake, who proceeded to eat me).Result? Easy kill.IF Blizz didn't KNOW there was a difference in the number of deaths that a group could endure and still succeed, WHY ARE THERE THREE BREZZES in 25 man, versus only 1 in 10 man? Answer: It isn't because there are 15 more people (that would mean 2.5 brezzes, so, 2, not 3). It's because they KNOW that you have more breathing room in 25 man vs 10 man. One guy pulling 10k? So? He's at 4.3% of the group's dps (made up numbers based on my memories of 25 man and the lfr), not a big deal. 10k dps in 10-man, he's 8-9% of the dps, which means he's dragging the entire group down in a BIG WAY.I agree that getting 25 people to work together is harder than 10. However, if you're in a 25-man raid, you already have a larger desire to be there and work together, so this argument quickly becomes moot.Getting 25 people online is easier than 10? DUH. If that's the argument, we should have 2-player raids.... It's a LOT easier to get 2 people together than 10. Sorry, had to say it. Again, we go to the fact that 25-man raids have 25 people that WANT to sacrifice time to raid, whereas 10-man guilds usually have 12+ people ready, so everyone thinks "There's more than enough tonight, I'll take the night off", and thus you end up with only 9 people online.... I've seen it a lot.So far both arguments are almost useless because the people that raid 25-mans are usually the more "hardcore" than those that do 10-mans.... Any other thoughts?
2-25-2012 @ 4:47AM
Having done both, usually as a healer, my $0.02:10 is easier to coordinate people (on time etc).25 has better loot distribution.. (7 of the last 8 weeks we de'd druid gear in DS-10 because we had no druid and we're cashing in rogue/dk/mage/druid tokens for vendoring while half the rest of the raid is in dire need of T13 tokens)25 is smoother to heal, but blizzard scale up damage accordingly.10 is easier to have a problematic raid comp for some fights. Homogenization only goes so far.25 seems a bit rougher on more people's machines these days than it did before.I'd rather be in a 25 group, but my home realm is so full of special kids that don't get along that so few seem interesting in trying to deal with the logistics.I wish that they'd end trying to make dual-mode raids. Design for either 10, 15, 25 whatever and stick to it for the expansion. Having dual-mode raids is a pain to balance for. 10's are a little too small IMO. How about 15? Target something like 2 tank, 3-4 heal, 9-10 dps? Not 15/25 or 10/25 or 10/15/25.. Only do 15.This discussion isn't new. The end of 40man raiding was also predicted to be the end of wow.
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