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2-24-2012 @ 3:27PM
I feel like the "why do 25 man raiding when you get the same loot?" question entirely misses the point of a game...the whole point of playing a game is fun. You should be doing 25 man raids if you find 25 man raids more fun than 10 man raids. They are pretty different raiding environments. I prefer 10 man, but I've done some 25s, and the entire reason I can have a "preference" is because there's a difference between the experiences, and I like one more than the other.As a thought experiment for raiders...if the solo quests out in the world awarded the same "loot" as heroic raids, would you stop raiding and just quest, since the loot is the same? I certainly wouldn't...because I don't find questing to be even remotely as fun as raiding. It's not about the loot, honestly. The only reason I want gear from raids is so that I'm capable of pulling my weight in raids. The mere act of possessing loot doesn't do anything "fun." It just enables the fun of being able to raid.So if 25 man raiding is dying out, perhaps the answer is not the loot equality (though 25 mans, as I recall, do offer a slightly higher loot-per-person ratio) but rather the fun of 25 man raiding is not sufficient to balance out the added hassle of putting 25 man raids together for most people. In which case, it's not an ideal format for most people, though obviously phasing it out will hurt those for whom the fun-to-hassle equation does come out on the positive side.Just my thoughts on this long-standing issue.
2-24-2012 @ 4:02PM
This this this this this.People should ideally be raiding because they like the experience of raiding. If you prefer 10s, raid 10s. If you prefer 25s, raid 25s.Unfortunately loot lust gets the better of people and their preferences fly out the window when they can get equivalent loot "easier". This is proved whenever this topic is raised and plenty of people say that they prefer 25 man raiding over 10 man, but they have to raid 10 man because it is easier (and let's all conveniently pretend T11 didn't happen if we're trying to "win" this argument).The problem in this expansion has been the complete failure on Blizzard's part to balance the raid sizes equally so 25s are dying a painful death. If the raids were truly balanced then this wouldn't be a problem, at all! People who want to raid 25s can do so without feeling like they're being punished.I feel the organisational argument is flawed. You have your core raid roster, and you have backups for X number of slots. If you run the risk of not filling your 25 roster... have more backups. Yes that is a simplification, but that is all it really needs to come down to. And if you really can't get 25 on one night... well Z got it right above with the comment on lockouts. Killing an heroic boss in 25 or 10 should not lock you out of the other size. And if the 2 raid sizes were equally balanced then there would be no need to anyway.As for how to balance them... I have no idea. But then I don't have decades of experience in encounter design and also don't get paid (presumabely) quite lucratively to do so.
2-24-2012 @ 4:33PM
This is one of the classic pro-10man arguement that COMPLETELY misses the point.It's quite easy to minimize the issue by saying "You should be doing 25 man raids if you find 25 man raids more fun than 10 man raids." and then imply that 25mans are dying because people prefer the 10man format. I have talked to dozens of former 25man raiders who now raid 10s, because that is what is available, but would prefer to raid 25s if they could find a group that fit their needs. The problem is that 10s are significantly more convenent for raid leaders to organizes, so fewer people are willing to go to the trouble of organizing the 25man group. Second, when a 25man group struggles its incredably easy for it to convert to a 10man group, then pretty soon the the people being left out of the 10man group or being stuck on the B-Team get tired of it and look for an new guild pretty much making the transfer back to 25man impossible.In short, 25's aren't struggling because players don't like it. It's because its less convenent and people will almost always take the path of least resistance eventually.
2-24-2012 @ 4:44PM
"As a thought experiment for raiders...if the solo quests out in the world awarded the same "loot" as heroic raids, would you stop raiding and just quest, since the loot is the same?"I wouldn't (I raid 25), but I'm sure a lot of people would.
2-24-2012 @ 4:52PM
Graylo, I think you didn't read my post carefully. I never said that 25 mans might be dying because they're not fun, or that people prefer the 10 man format. I said that 25 mans might be dying because for most people who ideally would prefer to run 25 mans *the extra fun doesn't balance out the extra work required to organize*.Everything you wrote about people you've talked to supports that.
2-24-2012 @ 5:18PM
@Graylo:You say that people aren't quitting 25s because they don't enjoy 25s, they are quitting 25s because 25s are inconvenient (either to organize, or to even locate).Isn't that kind of the same thing? I mean, if you say to me that I have to do more work in order to play my game...that doesn't sound fun to me. I ran an ICC25 back in the day, and it was driving me nuts. I can't blame *anyone* who doesn't feel like taking that mantle up. And I have to assume that you agree with me, since you mention all the former 25-players you know who can't "find" a 25 to play in. If they all loved 25s that much, and there are so many of them, why don't they start up their own 25, from scratch? Post on their server forums, advertise it in /1, etc.? Pretty soon they'd have a new 25 going, and yay, happy-fun-time-25-raiding.The answer: organizing a 25 isn't fun. It is work. Oftentimes demoralizing work, when you feel like 20-odd people are sitting around, bored, while you try to find a pugger to fill in, because *another* person just decided to not show up tonight.So, by their very nature, 25s are less fun. Maybe you don't see that, if you are just one of the people who shows up every week, and never thinks about what the raid leader went through to get things rolling, or what healing captain is trying to juggle to make sure that people don't die, or whatever. But when I see people say that "wildly inconvenient" isn't the same thing as "not fun", it blows my brain.Maybe someday, Blizz will make a system where you can happily run the 25 format you love, without having to worry about personalities, recruitment, healing assignments, tanking assignments, dps assignments, etc.Orite, LFR. Go have fun killing stuff with 24 other people. And next time you run a non-LFR 25, be sure to thank your raid leader and his officers.
2-24-2012 @ 5:33PM
"I wouldn't (I raid 25), but I'm sure a lot of people would."If you're correct that a sizeable proportion of the raiding population, already a small minority of the overall playerbase, would stop raiding if solo or small group activities provided the same loot, wouldn't that suggest that large group PvE such as Raiding is an antiquated concept artificially supported by gear inflation for nostalgic reasons?I mean, if most people don't raid, constant attempts to get more people raiding fail and many raiders would stop if there were alternative gear progression paths, then Blizzard would logically be better off scaling back both 10 and 25 man raids in favour of putting their resources to work developing new concepts in solo and small group content.
2-24-2012 @ 7:42PM
@Graylo:If so many former 25-man raiders really preferred 25-man raids, why are all the 25-man raiding guilds having so many issues with recruitment? The fact is that the people raiding 10s for the most part don't prefer the 25s. I think mostly what has died off is the casual 25-man guilds. In Wrath, most 25-man raiding guilds had a core group of 10-12 raiders, and the rest of the 25 that were mostly carried along. The core raiders used the 25-man to get the better gear, and ran their 10-mans for actual progression or hard modes. Once lockouts were shared, that model was gone and they were done carrying the rest of the group since the better loot didn't exist anymore either. On my server, the most of the progression-oriented 25-man guilds are still there raiding 25s (and they're almost always recruiting). However, there were several much more casual 25-mans that are now gone. In addition, there used to be 25-man pugs I'd occasionally hop into since I was in a 10-man raiding guild, but I haven't seen any of those since Cata released.It seems 25-man raiding is still popular in the world-first progression scene. However, I think the reason 10-man raiding has become more popular at more casual levels is that it is much easier to find a smaller group that fits well together in terms of skill, raiding commitment, and personality.
2-25-2012 @ 2:36AM
Consider though, how does fun fit into the current model? If you want a laid-back breeze-through, well, LFR is the best way to go with that. If all you want is large groups, again, LFR. What do Normals and Heroics offer that LFR doesn't? Better gear and harder challenge.So, starting with a baseline of gear and challenge, let's add in the aspect of bigger groups. How many people (per realm) are after the best gear and/or hardest encounters AND prefer larger groups? If they have to choose between the former and the latter, which wins out?With each decision, some people are going to go one way or the other, and it certainly seems like the people who both want the best rewards (either in loot or prestige) and prefer the largest group size are going to be pretty rare.If 3% of a 2000 character realm (60 people) do normal-difficulty raids, what percentage is willing to fight through to 25s on heroic? If it's less than half, the numbers aren't going to satisfy the need.
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