Shifting Perspectives: More on level 90 feral Mists of Pandaria talents
Every week, WoW Insider brings you Shifting Perspectives for cat, bear, restoration and balance druids. Welcome to our feral cat edition, brought to you by Chase Hasbrouck, aka Alaron of The Fluid Druid blog. Let the face clawing begin!
This week, I want to take a closer look at the proposed Mists of Pandaria level 90 talents for feral druids. This tier of talents has received significant criticism on the WoW forums and other discussion boards, with the most common appellation being "useless." I couldn't disagree more. Given the constraints that Blizzard has to operate under, I think these talents offer up some interesting new game mechanics.
Heresy, yes, I know. Before you bring out the pitchforks, remember these key facts about how talents are supposed to work:
This week, I want to take a closer look at the proposed Mists of Pandaria level 90 talents for feral druids. This tier of talents has received significant criticism on the WoW forums and other discussion boards, with the most common appellation being "useless." I couldn't disagree more. Given the constraints that Blizzard has to operate under, I think these talents offer up some interesting new game mechanics.
Heresy, yes, I know. Before you bring out the pitchforks, remember these key facts about how talents are supposed to work:
- Talents are no longer the prime determinants of player power; they are now merely utility skills. You can fulfill your core DPS/healing/tanking role in a raid with no talents at all, you'll just be slightly less good at it. Rogues, as a comparison, only have one tier of talents that affect their DPS, just as we do; everything else is survivability, crowd control, or movement.
- Talent choices must be reasonably balanced; otherwise, we're back to everybody picking the same thing, which leads to the developers balancing around everyone having that thing, which causes complaints about not having choices. This balance has to extend to both PvE and PvP.
- The benefits granted by talents can't be so strong that they cause significant changes in class desirability, or we're back to the shaman stacking model again. Admittedly, any advantages are still going to be min-maxed by heroic raiding guilds, but the perception that it's required cannot be allowed to exist.
At least, that's the theory. The ideal is for all six talent choices to be equally valuable for each PvE role and PvP (cynics are free to substitute "equally useless"). Unfortunately, having four specs makes this exceptionally difficult, so I expect we'll likely end up with two to three no-brainer choices and two to three actual decisions after the balancing and theorycrafting is done. That ends up being pretty similar to the Cataclysm model but with much less added cruft -- perfectly fine with me.

Talent analysis
Heart of the Wild This talent is, to put it mildly, controversial, though the controversy itself is quite old. The irresistible force of "I rolled a cat/moonkin/X to do just that; I want to min-max that and don't want to do other stuff" slams right into the immovable object called "developers want to encourage being a hybrid." Any class that has had the option to use procs for healing or DPS (shaman, paladins) has seen this before. While I generally come down on the Whatever Best Helps Your Raid side of this argument, I can understand how it pushes people out of their personal comfort zones if they're expected to help fulfill the responsibilities of a role they didn't sign up for.
Looking at the talent itself, though, it's far too broad. I think a big part of the initial negative reception to this talent was the idea that this will let druids of all roles do all things. This is a bridge too far; the mechanics changes needed in order to have all four specs be able to fill any of the other three roles in a useful yet balanced manner would be overwhelming.
Instead, I think a much more likely role for this talent is to let you fill a single different PvE role effectively. Feral and guardian druids will be able to do each other's jobs, as will restoration and balance druids, but that's it. Don't get too wrapped around the numbers/text yet; I'm confident that Blizzard will add the necessary changes to make the off role performance effective, such as crit immunity for ferals. Certain bits will definitely disappear as well, such as the hit rating increase by 100%; if that stays, that incentivizes the purposeful reforging away of hit to make HotW a DPS cooldown, which it is not intended to be.
Actually, a better question for discussion is how effective the off role capabilities should be. You obviously don't want ferals/balance with HotW to be more effective than standard tanks/healers, but if it's too underpowered, then nobody will bother to talent or use it. Some 80% to 90% capability is probably a good target. It wouldn't be something you use all the time, obviously (see key fact #1), but for those occasional encounters where the raid leader really needs 2.5 healers or 1.5 tanks, it could definitely work well.
Dream of Cenarius Let's break out the old SAT analogies. In my view, Dream of Cenarius is to Heart of the Wild as Soul of the Forest is to Incarnation -- a choice between a short cooldown/passive ability that's less effective, or a bigger cooldown that's more effective. That's a good choice to be forced to make.
Blizzard has to be very careful how it plays this one, however, as the possibility to incentivize unwanted behavior is definitely there. Damage spells increasing healing done by 30%? Heals increasing next ability's damage by 30%? Hey, this talent is now mandatory, as your resto druids all now have to hardcast a Wrath before they pop a preplanned Tranquility, and your ferals/moonkin end up having to toss out a random Regrowth on anybody before they Rip/Starfall to max their DPS. Is this good design? I don't think so. It wouldn't surprise me, if this talent stays as is, to see DoT and HoT effects excluded from the buff.
Disentanglement This isn't a bad talent (though obviously much more PvP-focused than PvE-), but it's out of place in this tier as is. This is supposed to be a tier that gives druids reasons to deviate from their primary role, not the crowd control or healing tier, and this is elements of both. This isn't motivating people to use different roles; it's motivating people to use a shift for a buff, which means people will simply powershift every 30 seconds to proc the heal.
Talent design recommendations
Even though I think these talents are much better, there are still a few tweaks I'd like to see made. Any other changes you'd recommend? Let me know in the comments!
Heart of the Wild This talent is, to put it mildly, controversial, though the controversy itself is quite old. The irresistible force of "I rolled a cat/moonkin/X to do just that; I want to min-max that and don't want to do other stuff" slams right into the immovable object called "developers want to encourage being a hybrid." Any class that has had the option to use procs for healing or DPS (shaman, paladins) has seen this before. While I generally come down on the Whatever Best Helps Your Raid side of this argument, I can understand how it pushes people out of their personal comfort zones if they're expected to help fulfill the responsibilities of a role they didn't sign up for.
Looking at the talent itself, though, it's far too broad. I think a big part of the initial negative reception to this talent was the idea that this will let druids of all roles do all things. This is a bridge too far; the mechanics changes needed in order to have all four specs be able to fill any of the other three roles in a useful yet balanced manner would be overwhelming.
Instead, I think a much more likely role for this talent is to let you fill a single different PvE role effectively. Feral and guardian druids will be able to do each other's jobs, as will restoration and balance druids, but that's it. Don't get too wrapped around the numbers/text yet; I'm confident that Blizzard will add the necessary changes to make the off role performance effective, such as crit immunity for ferals. Certain bits will definitely disappear as well, such as the hit rating increase by 100%; if that stays, that incentivizes the purposeful reforging away of hit to make HotW a DPS cooldown, which it is not intended to be.
Actually, a better question for discussion is how effective the off role capabilities should be. You obviously don't want ferals/balance with HotW to be more effective than standard tanks/healers, but if it's too underpowered, then nobody will bother to talent or use it. Some 80% to 90% capability is probably a good target. It wouldn't be something you use all the time, obviously (see key fact #1), but for those occasional encounters where the raid leader really needs 2.5 healers or 1.5 tanks, it could definitely work well.
Dream of Cenarius Let's break out the old SAT analogies. In my view, Dream of Cenarius is to Heart of the Wild as Soul of the Forest is to Incarnation -- a choice between a short cooldown/passive ability that's less effective, or a bigger cooldown that's more effective. That's a good choice to be forced to make.
Blizzard has to be very careful how it plays this one, however, as the possibility to incentivize unwanted behavior is definitely there. Damage spells increasing healing done by 30%? Heals increasing next ability's damage by 30%? Hey, this talent is now mandatory, as your resto druids all now have to hardcast a Wrath before they pop a preplanned Tranquility, and your ferals/moonkin end up having to toss out a random Regrowth on anybody before they Rip/Starfall to max their DPS. Is this good design? I don't think so. It wouldn't surprise me, if this talent stays as is, to see DoT and HoT effects excluded from the buff.
Disentanglement This isn't a bad talent (though obviously much more PvP-focused than PvE-), but it's out of place in this tier as is. This is supposed to be a tier that gives druids reasons to deviate from their primary role, not the crowd control or healing tier, and this is elements of both. This isn't motivating people to use different roles; it's motivating people to use a shift for a buff, which means people will simply powershift every 30 seconds to proc the heal.
Talent design recommendations
Even though I think these talents are much better, there are still a few tweaks I'd like to see made. Any other changes you'd recommend? Let me know in the comments!
- Give Displacer Beast its DoT removal back. It's useless otherwise.
- Swap the level 90 and level 60 talents. When leveling/soloing, you have to be more hybrid than in a group. Why wait until 90 for the hybrid-encouraging talents? Make Force of Nature and Incarnation appropriately awesome, and it motivates people to get to max level and pick them up.
- Drop the heal from Disentanglement and make it baseline. As it stands now, Disentanglement is effectively baseline, since the other two abilities are not appealing for PvP. The heal portion is too similar to Renewal, also, and would simply lead to its being spammed on CD in PvE. Make it a proper utility ability.
- In exchange, add a better hybrid talent to that tier. I'd like to see something that lets a druid trade a resource for a heal, such as costing rage/energy/eclipse power for an instant heal on a CD. You could even call it something druid-flavored, like, I don't know, Gift of the Earthmother or something.
Filed under: Druid, (Druid) Shifting Perspectives






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Andras Feb 26th 2012 8:14PM
No matter how awesome the talents get to be the fact is that blizz has to balance 11 classes now. I fear that druids will become the 'rogues' next expansion since monks are going to blow them out of the water. I totally disagree with MoP talent trees. Cookie-cutter builds will always exist.
Brett Porter Feb 26th 2012 9:59PM
You may disagree with the decision to go from 41 talents to 6 talents, the fact is, this makes decisions more interesting. You were already going to get those base talents, because that's what EJ or WI told you to do. That's not fun.
Getting a 5% increase to a damage/healing ability was never fun for me. I lived for those 4-5 talent choices that actually made a difference. I look forward to the Mists change of talents.
WrecklessMEDIC Feb 27th 2012 12:16AM
I completely agree Andras. No matter how hard they try there will ALWAYS be cookie-cutter builds. These changes do nothing to eliminate them. The min-maxers at EJ will find the best talents and everyone else will follow suit. They might as well eliminate talents all together and just give you a set build cuz this is an exercise in futility.
Revnah Feb 27th 2012 1:40AM
How can the min-maxers "find the best build" when several tiers of talents don't even *affect* dps? The cookie-cutter talents are already in the spec as abilities you automatically learn. Yes, each class has at least one tier of talents where one is "best" for a certain spec, but it's nowhere near as black-and-white as it is today.
When you have three different kinds of, for example, crowd control or healing, it's most likely the boss you're facing that determined which is "best". Which means we'll keep switching specs around, and personally I find that a lot better than what we have now.
squirreleo89 Feb 27th 2012 2:56AM
@Revnah
Certain raids will favour certain choices which means there will no longer be a best overall talent selection but a best for raid x build
Revnah Feb 27th 2012 4:36AM
If at all, it will be a 'best' spec for one fight (as opposed to, an entire raid). And even then, the min-maxing will likely concern only 1 or 2 talent tiers, as few fights require cc AND movement AND selfhealing AND... So a lot of it is still up to the individual.
inkliizii1 Feb 26th 2012 8:40PM
One thing, why does "Gift of the Earthmother" link to Aspect of the Cheetah? Just curious....
Alaron Feb 26th 2012 9:47PM
An inscrutable reason known to none. (Otherwise known as I accidentally omitted the last digit of the spellid in the wowhead link.) Fixed.
yagamimoon Feb 26th 2012 9:31PM
Not only he has to balance 11 classes (thus the simplifying of most of them), but they are also thinking of the future, and the fact that they need options and space to accomodate skills for the time they hit lvl 120 or something like that. This is a work to prepare for the future expansions :)
Drull Feb 26th 2012 9:22PM
I would like to see something like:
Guardian: For X seconds after shifting out of bear form the Druid retains their armor, crit immunity and dodge. This ability can only be used once per Y amount of time.
I am not sure what to add for the other specs but would give Guardian the ability to shift more often and throw out a rebirth or tranquility as needed.
detailbear Feb 26th 2012 9:58PM
Well, perhaps Ferals could maintain their Bleed and Balance could maintain their Eclipse state for X seconds? Restoration could extend Lifebloom for X seconds? Shift out - cast something - shift back and not lose ground on renewing your XoT abilities.
detailbear Feb 26th 2012 10:05PM
@Drull
Well, perhaps Ferals could maintain their Bleed and Balance could maintain their Eclipse state for X seconds? Restoration could extend Lifebloom for X seconds? Shift out - cast something - shift back and not lose ground on renewing your XoT abilities.
Vote this down if it's a duplicate, please.
Lunthus Feb 26th 2012 9:31PM
I've been a feral for years, but hey guys, look at this in a positive way! Imagine bear form for us ferals being more of an Arms spec instead of a Prot... BEEARRRR STORMMMMMM.
Anyways, my hope for Guardian Druids is that they use the aspect of us being the "Jack of all Trades" class, would be interesting for a new form for Tanks, DK Tanking Maybe with cat form or cat form turns into something else like a Wolf? Maybe not, but who knows! The excitement builds especially since monks use staves just like us *cough* LEGENDARY *cough*. I've been playing Feral since Classic, my excitement for being the Jack of all Trades class grows each expansion and in MoP, we will indubitably get more attention since we're the only class being broken up (or first). So, everyone FEEL THE EXCITEMENT!
paul.morales91 Feb 26th 2012 9:32PM
The problem with the level 90 talents is they just don't feel awesome enough. Other classes get totally new abilities that make the player feel unstoppable. Meanwhile, druids just get talents that encourage us to leave our comfort zone. Its not bad necessarily, just...not very exciting.
Here's what I'd like to see from these talents:
Heart of the Wild: I'm gonna agree with Chase here. Let bears dps, cats tank, boomkin heal, and restos dps. For bears, they can't get Rip, so have HotW give Ferocious Bite a bleed that hits for an additional 100% damage every 2 sec over X sec depending on the number of combo points. For cats, have HotW decrease all their damage taken by 50% in bear form. For Balance, allow healing spells to be cast in Moonkin form. Finally, for Resto, just increase spell damage.
Dream of Cenarius: Its much better than Master Shapeshifter, but it still doesn't feel right. as a passive ability, its just boring, and may I say TOO passive. I want this talent to make me feel like a badass. Make it a strictly dps talent like Master Shapeshifter was, but make it an action bar proc, like Arcane Missiles. If you're in cat form, you automatically shift out of form, and your next three Wrath's are free, instant, and generate a combo point. If you're in caster or moonkin form, you teleport behind your target, automatically shifting to cat form for the next 10 sec, and teleporting you back when it expires. Obviously, this still has and internal cooldown.
Disentanglement: Remove the heal from the equation completely and replace it with a movement and damage buff.
Boozard Feb 27th 2012 1:46AM
i agree with this. not complaining. i feel feral is in a good place right now and not many changes are needed. however, when i compare it to some of the changes shamans will be getting, it takes a bit off of the excitement.
Snuzzle Feb 26th 2012 10:13PM
I seriously don't get how Blizz keeps refusing to see that Disentanglement, as it is now, would be mandatory for Bear druis in MOP and force us to shift on cooldow for a free heal (between boss swings, of course, requiring us to download an outside addon for the swing timer and make a macro to cause an instant shift-in-shift-out).
They got rid of kitty powershifting even though that was actually somewhat fun and interesting. It added an element of skill. It wasn't simply mindlessly mashing a macro every 30 seconds like this will be. And they got rid of kitty powershifting. Why get rid of it only to add back in a mandatory Bear talent that forces us to do that but worse?
codahighland Feb 26th 2012 10:38PM
I definitely agree with moving the talents to the level 60 tier. As other commenters have said, level 90 should feel like an awesome finishing touch to your class, not something as unimpressive as a bonus to the stuff you aren't otherwise using.
Kanethechiss Feb 26th 2012 11:18PM
I play mainly as a resto Druid. I already have a talent that allows me to change form and dps. It is called tree form.
my off spec I'd boomkin - I can already change forms and heal. And in pvp (battleground or rated bgs - we all know casters Druids are unwelcome in arenas) it can make a huge difference.
Share other classes abilities? Useful -but not for pvp. I die? Gone, they Die? Gone, they get coved and we are separated? Gone....
Give me a level 90 talent I care about - like permanent tree form. I don't care if it means I can't have it as a cooldown, don't get the armor, the dps boost, the roots, the extra lifeblood or anything other then looking like a tree. Transmog tree form. That would be a worthwhile talent.
Nyold Feb 27th 2012 12:12AM
I think the intention of the hybrid tier is in oh-s* scenarios where, for example, the tank dies and another druid must be able to step in and tank him while he's being brezzed. Why can't he be brezzed right away? Because in encounters like Thaddius, you need to wait until it's the right time otherwise the rezzed tank would just die again.
I hope it's not part of the "encounter design" to require an extra 0.5 healer very predictably, say chimaeron. If it's preplanned like that, then a druid dps is gonna be favored over any other dps for that phase, or a druid healer is gonna be favored over any other healer because he can help with dps (for example, Hagara / spine where burst dps is needed on a regular, predictable basis).
One way to counter this mandatory class stacking is that the encounter itself can be designed so that when the burst dps is required, the healing requirement is stepped up (maybe through an intense damage aura during that phase).
Bottom line, I seriously hope that the balancing and intended usage of this hybridization is to step in when things don't go as planned, and this is one of those things that will distinguish great druids from good druids, in that they're able to quickly identify the need when it arises, shapeshift, have their action bars in order and quickly perform that role. I hope it's not something that the raid have to take into account during the planning / min-maxing part, because then it'll be "required"
stupidhero Feb 27th 2012 6:51AM
Thaddius is the only encounter where this may apply. In all other cases you're better of to brez right away and have the DD on top use his defensive cd's. (evasion, iceblock/cauterize etc.). And for all those two tank encounters it's usually no problem at all.
Leaves exactly the second scenario you describes for HotW - at which point HotW becomes overpowered or right unusable, if you want to stop it from being a requirement.