Encrypted Text: Meet your new poisons

The new poison system that's being implemented in Mists of Pandaria might seem like a fairly major revamp for a class that's typically seen very little change between expansions. The conversion of poisons from items to skills and the new lethal/non-lethal categorization is a massive update compared to what we saw between Wrath and Cataclysm. A rogue's ability to provide utility in a raid environment is being expanded dramatically and has always been a weakness of ours.
The truth is that those changes pale in comparison to the other poison updates due in Mists. While not carrying poisons around in our bags is simply a quality of life change, obtaining new poisons for the first time in years will have a much larger impact. The poison crit system, which has been fundamentally flawed since its inception, is being redone properly. Shiv is actually going to be back on every rogue's hotbar. Poisoning both weapons at once is merely chump change, while the rebirth of random stuns deserves the loudest possible heralding.
If you build it, they will come
The point of the massive poison redesign in Mists is to simplify the whole system. Our choice of DPS poisons is reduced to two, which will likely boil down to one for PvP and one for PvE. We already know that all of our poisons are moving to a percentage-based proc system to facilitate the elimination of the quick dagger. As an aside, realize that the death of quick daggers almost completely ensures that we'll never see a quick axe or sword again. Again, Mists looks to simplify and streamline.
Poisons were previously much more complicated. Between a variety of PPM and percentage-based procs and the different poison choices of each rogue spec, most rogues just looked up what to use and stuck with that. Blizzard wants to move away from the model of "just look it up" and move into the model of "I can figure this out on my own."
Poisons will crit like melee attacks
In order to further simplify poisons in Mists, poisons will now crit off of our melee crit rate, instead of using our spell crit rate. In addition, poison crits are going to deal double damage, instead of just the 150% they deal today. When you look at your character pane, your melee crit rate will actually reflect your crit rate for all of your abilities. All of our attacks will be dealing at least 200% damage when they crit. While it's still likely that our poison hit chance will still be based on our spell hit chance, tying poisons to our melee crit chance is a step in the right direction.
Mace stun is back ... sort of
I have been a mace rogue for as long as I can remember. While I have had fun with axes and I don't mind the double-dagger motif, my true love has always been maces. I found a Viking Warhammer while leveling up so many years ago, and I have never looked back. The random stun effect from the old Mace Specialization simply made playing a rogue more fun. Your target would randomly double over in pain, with bonus points if the stun landed while they were casting a spell.
Paralytic Poison brings random stuns back to our arsenal. While it's true that the stuns themselves will be more predictable due to Paralytic Poison's stacking nature, they're still considered random stuns for the purpose of diminishing returns. It will be entirely possible to line up a Kidney Shot right after a Paralytic Poison stun, yielding a powerful 10-second window of opportunity. Add in a Cheap Shot or two, and you're talking about a serious stunlock. The only bummer is that Paralytic Poison can be dispelled, which gives enemy healers an option for countering its effects.
Leeching Poison again borrows from Diablo II
If you ever played a melee class in Diablo II, you know that life leech items were the key to staying alive. Leeching Poison takes a page out of that playbook by allowing rogues to heal themselves while dealing damage. Leeching Poison has the potential to be incredibly awesome. As the poison stands today, it looks like once we've poisoned our target, our melee attacks will start healing us for 10% of the damage done. We don't know if that means just white swings or if all of our attacks will cause us to leech. Leeching Poison is straight-up overpowered by any calculation and will result in rogues' becoming the most self-survivable class by far.
My beef with Recuperate has always been that it's too weak to do any real healing and that it costs us DPS to use it. Leeching Poison solves both of these problems elegantly. My only concern is that it might just be too good, prompting an eventual nerf.
Shiv is the new Amplify Curse
Shiv is one of those spells that rogues forget they have. Aside from the random trash mob every few months that needs to have its Enrage effect dispelled, Shiv isn't that good. The ability is getting a major buff in Mists that should have it on our action bars once again. Shiv will instantly poison our targets with an improved version of our currently active non-lethal poison.
Don't worry, Shiv is still going to generate a combo point and remove enrage effects from our targets. In addition to its current abilities, it will also give us the ability to amplify a poison. Shiv will specifically increase the potency of the basic non-lethal poisons temporarily, like slowing our targets further via Crippling Poison or boosting Wound Poison's effect to 50% for a few seconds.
The new poisons are slightly different. Using Shiv with Leeching Poison up will instantly heal you for a percentage of your total life, while Shiv and Paralytic Poison combine to apply a root to your target. No matter what non-lethal poison you're using or what situation you're in, it's clear that Shiv will be incredibly valuable. If a poison is worth applying, then it's probably worth boosting, even if temporarily.
The beauty of the new poison design in Mists is that it not only simplifies several aspects of the system, it also provides us with interesting new options and important decisions to make.
Filed under: Rogue, (Rogue) Encrypted Text






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
JattTheRogue Feb 29th 2012 9:12AM
I'm looking forward to the new Shiv, but I'm sad that it's going to be on a 10 second CD (although I understand, what with the new effects): what am I supposed to spam now when a priest disarms just my MH weapon? :P
I also don't like that Crippling got a nerf. There are already so many ways we can be kited, and poisons can already be dispelled, plus we're losing a little mobility what with having to now choose between Prep and Shadowstep. Crippling slowing a bit more than most other slows was incredibly useful, seeing as how many other classes have slows they can keep up constantly but that are ranged (Slow, Frostbolt, Concussive Shot, Chains of Ice, etc.).
fromnowear Feb 29th 2012 6:05PM
Don't forget rogue Evasion duels! My Shiv spam will be sorely missed there too.
I'm also not really concerned about Crippling going down to 50%. After playing a Ret pally and DK, you realize that's still plenty to keep mobs in range. Don't forget, we're getting or keeping other abilities to deal with kiting in MoP.
Looking at the talent calculator, there's one on almost every tier:
Nightstalker (20% speed while stealthed)
Deadly Throw (50% ranged snare/interrupt + damage)
Any of the level 60 tier (though Prep will have a less consistent effect on your uptime)
Deadly Brew (apply Crippling when you apply a non-lethal poison)
Paralytic Poison (random stun at 5th stack)
Shuriken Toss (ranged CP generator - good to use with Deadly Throw)
I'm not too worried about lacking the ability to stay on-target. More importantly, this is the opposite of "dumbing it down". Instead of getting huge passive benefits like 70% snares and 20% increased movement speed, you actually have to press buttons more buttons to stay on target in the new system. If anything, this is an increase in the skill cap.
JattTheRogue Feb 29th 2012 7:49PM
I know we have other tools for mobility/snaring, but the thing is, we're still taking a net loss. We've had all of those tools before; the only new thing is Paralytic Poison, and if we take that, we can't use Crippling Poison. You mention that the level 60 tier gives us mobility tools, but remember that Subtlety already has two of the three talents, so we're going to lose either Prep or ShS.
So in the end, we get a little bit more ease at using Deadly Throw what with Shuriken Toss (although both of them are only a 30 yard range and most of the other ranged snares are 35 or 40, so it would still be possible for someone to keep us slowed without us being able to attack them), and we lose Prep or ShS (or both, if you take Burst of Speed, but then you gain that). Paralytic Poisons's not going to be very useful in a kiting situation, because you have to be able to reach 5 stacks for it to do anything, and if you can't hit the other person, it's worthless, whereas if you hit them only once or twice Crippling is immediately beneficial. The only real gain in mobility that I see is that Cloak of Shadows is now on Preparation as well, which is huge, but once again, you're still losing out on ShS.
I'm not saying rogues are getting nerfed into the ground or that we'll all of a sudden be terrible in PVP; I think we'll still be a force to be reckoned with. But there's no denying that we're getting a slight-to-moderate nerf in terms of mobility and snares (two sides of the same coin, one just affects us and the other, our enemy).
ScrubRogue Mar 1st 2012 10:30AM
I have to say, I don't know ANY rogues who don't have shiv on their bar...of course I live in PVP, perhaps that's why?
xenothaulus Feb 29th 2012 9:25AM
I always read "simplify and streamline" as "dumb down." I can't help it, I like complexity in my games and every xpac WoW has gotten less and less complicated and, well, {dumber|easier.} What has always appealed to me about the rogue class is how "mathy" it is, and it feels like we are losing that.
Puntable Feb 29th 2012 10:32AM
Can you explain what you are referring to? When was the last time you "did the math" to find out what poisons are best to use? If I remember right, Rogues have been using the same two poisons for at least two expansions. With 5.0 we might actually have a choice.
Chase Christian Feb 29th 2012 10:46AM
Rogues have actually been using a variety of poisons across the past few expansions. There have been points where combat rogues used Wound Poison, and the debate about the best thrown weapon poison still requires you to figure out exactly how many mobs are alive and exactly how long they'll be alive for, etc.
Jet Feb 29th 2012 9:58AM
Perhaps it wears off instantly.
Jimbob Feb 29th 2012 10:35AM
I have to say, I'm REALLY disappointed with the itemisation design for Combat. Cata saw the end of quick off hand swords and axes which was really sad for me having come in during Wrath. Seeing myself and other Combat Rogue's stalking Dalaran with a pair of scything axes on our backs was awesome and exactly what I wanted from the class. Now due to poison redesigns, as stated here and simplifying loot tables, it seems we'll never see what was in my opinion the only athletic dual wielding spec.
All this talk about class redesign just doesn't excite me like a (albeit vain) return to a dual sword wielding slasher spec would.
I'm not fussed about any potential "loss" in how "mathy" the class is. It will still take a decent amount of skill to play the class well. Whether someone else does that for you or you are able to do it yourself makes no odds to me.
Telwar Feb 29th 2012 11:29AM
Hrm... I wonder. Maybe Combat could have a feature where 2.6 speed weapons in the offhand were recalculated to be 1.8 speed, and have damage ranges adjusted accordingly. That would allow dual axes/maces/swords but without cluttering up loot tables.
caldai Feb 29th 2012 10:01PM
I agree. I miss duel wielding swords / axes. It just "fits" for a combat rogue's image.
AninParadX Feb 29th 2012 11:37AM
Alway a great read. Thanks. Poison are critting from melee crit now, but what about hit are assassination rogues still needing the big 17% spell hit, that poison don't miss anymore. If so this would be pretty strange, but it wouldn't much. Rogues have gotten used to it.
To the discussion of "dumbing" down. Maybe this is a bad example for some people. but look at the mobile phones now. Especially smarthphones. Those are easy to use and really everybody knows what's it all about. Why should a game be complicated and frustrating to use, if it's all about fun in your leisure time? I look at the ego-shooters and that simplificity is something that should be achieved in mmos. The depth of a game doesn't come from a complicated mechanic or a super combat system. Many factors make a gameplay experience deep and meaningful gaming experience.
If you want to play something complex. than go for old-school games or pen and paper. There you get everything you want.
Hey in before people getting the wrong ideas about the post. It's just my opinion and doesn't matter much. I usually don't post, but I really like the way WoW is becoming more and more casual and still satisfies those hardcore players. It's a great game and compared to others one of the best games every made in this genre.
Heii Feb 29th 2012 1:43PM
I don't see much of a problem with Leeching Poison in PvP. As far as I'm aware, you can only use one non-lethal, and by using Leeching you are trading up Paralytic or Crippling Poison.
Not only that, but they seem to be reeling back Rogue uptime on a target just a short amount and that could mean Leeching won't be worth it on targets that use range as a tool (Mages, hunters, etc.)
And I know this sounds like poppy-cock, but they could always have Combat-specific tweaks to proc rates that make Slow/Slow a better option then Slow/Fast. In this function, they could also introduce another slow melee or two to help with Enhancement itemization.
Of course, I also believe they should turn 1h DPS weapons back into AP so Frost DKs, Enh Shamans, SMF Warriors, and Rogues could all use the same weapons and reduce the amount of clutter on loot tables, if only by a bit.
Pyromelter Feb 29th 2012 9:12PM
I played a rogue in another game with leeching poison. The major advantage was significantly increased survivability in isolation/ganking situations. If you've ever opened up on someone tapping a node say in arathi basin, going toe to toe 1v1, a skilled player may be able to escape and force you to retreat or even kill you. With leeching, you'll be able to finish them off now even if they are giving you a pounding.
Imagine having a legit choice between trying to finish someone off and using cloak +vanish, instead of cloak + vanish any time your health dips a bit. It's pretty damn fun.
ScrubRogue Mar 1st 2012 10:38AM
In vanilla I had dual lifesteal daggers for soloing...not exactly leeching but the heals let me do things other rogues were like "nice!"
Redsnake Feb 29th 2012 3:32PM
So...Main Hand for PvP will probably be a clear choice between Deadly and Instant. That leaves Wound, Leeching, Paralytic, and Crippling left. Crippling is never going to get applied, because Deadly Brew will put it up. Wound is probably going to be necessary against any team with a healer if you don't have anyone else to apply it, Leeching for survival against double DPS teams. Then there's Paralytic, which requires you to give up a slow on your target. Better choice than today, but still seems a little restrictive imo.
JattTheRogue Feb 29th 2012 7:58PM
I think Crippling will still be used a lot in PVP, mainly because of the other two talents on the tier with Deadly Brew. If you want to use Paralytic Poison, you can't use Deadly Brew, since they're on the same tier. So it's a choice between Paralytic and Crippling, and for me at least, in PVP I'd rather have the sure slow than hoping I get to 5 stacks of Paralytic before the other person dies or before they kite me long enough for the other stacks to fall off since I don't have a slow on them. And Dirty Tricks is huge in PVP. The glyph of Blind has always been a requirement in PVP. And with making it and Gouge free, it means you have to watch your energy a little less to ensure you get off that CC. I think most PVPing rogues will be taking Dirty Tricks and running with Crippling. With the others you lose too much versatility.
milindpania Feb 29th 2012 9:04PM
I don't see how you can be excited, Chase. I have always enjoyed your articles, more often than not for their PvP articles, but this leaves me really disappointed. An already overpowered class, in terms of PvP at least, is getting boosts that are not needed. At all. Rogues now are what Arms Warriors were at the start of Cataclysm. Namely, specs that allow you to make 20 mistakes and get away with it. Shiv, as it stands for Mists of Pandaria, is grossly overpowered.
I play an Arms Warrior and Mace Stun never felt fun. RNG is anathema to PvP. The whole allure of PvP is to match wits with a human opponent and to outplay them, not to get trolled by random procs which could turn the tide. Mages using Fire Blast stuns via Impact should be proof enough of how idiotic Paralytic Poison could become. And frankly, Rogues hardly need more CC.
As for Leeching Poison, again, not needed. With Recuperate, Cheat Death and a 20% bonus to healing received, not to mentiona the usual tools such as Vanish, Cloak and Preperation, Rogues already have a lot of survival tools.
Mind-numbing. Another awful design here. A 100% cast-time increase to the next spell cast. Need I explain just how devastatingly overpowered that is? It makes Necrotic Strike pale in comparison.
Crippling Poison. Finally a proper design. This I do approve of. This would require a Rogue to time their Shiv. If their partners are getting tunneled by melee, they could Shiv and peel for the healer. If a kill target is getting away, again, Shiv and slow them down.
Finally, Wound Poison. Utter rubbish. A superior Mortal Strike for only 1 of the 3 classes who have it. Blizzard nerfed MS during Cata to make it less crucial, then buffed it by 15% for the 3 physical damage classes and now make it 50% for Rogues while Warriors and Hunters get shafted.
Already, almost any Arena comp with a melee can be improved by having a Rogue (Christmas Cleave/WMP/FMP become RMP, Shadowcleave/WLS become RLS, PHDk/KFC become Thug Cleave) and this is just further incentive to get Rogues in.
All in all, I hope Shiv gets changed and that Paralytic Poison gets removed during Beta.
ScrubRogue Mar 1st 2012 10:41AM
While mace stun was OP (I remember season 3 very well) I am betting its leeching that gets nerfed first lol. I already think recup is way OP I can't imagine anything more.
milindpania Mar 3rd 2012 1:36PM
I really don't get why I get downvoted when I have presented my arguments in a non-trolling, well thought out post. Downvoting is to get rid of trolls or abusive posts. Instead, it feels more likeany opinions contrary to what you want to hear are unwelcome and shouted down.