The Light and How to Swing It: The case against Vengeance

Do you remember what it was like to tank before Vengeance existed? It's been a year and a half since patch 4.0.1 implemented the Cataclysm. Along with the myriad changes that followed, tanking threat was forever changed with the introduction of Vengeance. What I remember about threat generation in those halcyon days was you'd grab threat early on with an elaborate combination of burst and threat transfers from rogues and hunters, and then you'd spend the rest of the fight with one eye on Omen to make sure that shadow priest didn't sneak up on you and rip threat away.
I know this is a song that you've heard me sing many a time before, but I always found that constant threat (pardon the pun) of your DPSers ripping aggro from you to be an intrinsic, exciting part of tanking. And while I've always argued that being robbed of that aspect of our gameplay was the biggest problem with Vengeance, the fact is there are more mechanics-oriented issues with the design. Fellow paladin blogger Theck (he of numbers and pounding headaches, and the graphs that bring all the boys to the raid) has written a compelling indictment against Vengeance, recently posted on his blog, which has caused me to completely reevaluate my opinion of the design -- and not toward a more positive light.
What Vengeance was supposed to be
To quote Ghostcrawler, "Vengeance was designed for a single purpose, which is to make sure tank threat scales as other players improve their gear." That is, while DPS classes are accumulating DPS stats that increase their own threat and tanks are accumulating survivability stats with absolutely no threat benefit, tanks can still keep up with the raid DPS's threat potential by "converting" part of their survivability into threat.
And yet, at the same time, "A tank shouldn't be able to just auto-attack and let Vengeance do the rest. Vengeance isn't a replacement for the tank generating enough initial threat to get the targets to stick to her."
So when first laid out on paper, the story was this: Threat was still going to matter, and Vengeance wasn't there to make the pull any easier, just keep that shadow priest off your ass at the halfway mark. Fair enough. The devil, however, is ever in the details.
Here's where it all broke down
First and foremost, the implementation of free damage for tanks lead to tank damage being left behind. While in Ghostcrawler's initial case of Vengeance, he tossed out the hypothetical number of a tank doing 50% of the damage an actual DPS would do with Vengeance up. The reality, though, is that we're not always rocking a full stack of Vengeance. In Dragon Soul, tanks without Vengeance stacks are reliably doing about 25% the damage output of a DPS player (about 10-12k DPS, using Theck's numbers), a piddling fraction of the numbers a damage-dealer can dish out. And this introduces a host of issues.
And the Light help you if you have an avoidance streak at the start of the fight. Have fun wildly throwing out taunts to keep that mage from being eaten.
Moreover, how about the pitiable job of the off tank? Unless they're an endangered CatBearTank, what chance do they have to contribute anything to the total damage of the raid when Vengeance dictates that their damage output be anything but flaccid while the current tank gets all the Vengeance stacks, in addition to all the glory?
Then, finally, when the off tank's time has come and they get to taunt, they find themselves in the unenviable position of needing to out-threat a juggernaut with maximum Vengeance without losing aggro. In some cases, the previous tank may be forced to either stop attacking the boss or to use a macro to clear off his or her Vengeance stacks.
And in addition to that, think of the poor play that Vengeance incentivizes, from standing in fire to build stacks (something I always did on Alysrazor while waiting for my egg to hatch) to inconsistent taunt swaps to keep each tank's stacks up (all the while confusing the hell out of the healers).
Finally, in terms of scaling, consider what happens when you go back to old content in your shiny T13 tank gear. Have you done a heroic lately in that gear? How far did your Vengeance stack with all your accumulated avoidance and mitigation stats? As Theck says, "Does a DPS spec generate 50% less DPS as soon as they set foot into an instance they out-gear? Of course not. So why should we?"
What could be
It doesn't have to be this way. The biggest problem with Vengeance's implementation is that it is dependent on the tank's actually taking damage. As detailed above, using that premise as the foundation of the formula creates all sorts of problems, from reverse scaling, to avoidance making our threat weaker, to incentivizing bad play, to neutering the off tank.
The solution that Theck proposes is Vengeance to morph from a reactive, stacking bonus to something entirely different. In his design, Vengeance would give you a 50% damage bonus to NPCs and scale with the tank's stamina value. This would turn Vengeance into something that steadily increases, regardless of the content being tanked, with the additional knob to turn of how much stamina exactly offers in scaling. It's genius in its simplicity.
Ultimately, having read Theck's post, I hope his conclusion has had the same effect on you, dear reader, as it has had on me. There is something rotten in Denmark with regards to Vengeance, and not just with regards to the look and feel of tanking. Something more intrinsic and foundational. And it cries out for repair.
Filed under: Paladin, (Paladin) The Light and How to Swing It






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Tantelus Mar 2nd 2012 3:23PM
I like the idea of Vengeance being non-reactive in nature, but I disagree with the Stamina scaling. It should scale off your stam as well as your avoidance stats (other than block to help out the bears, DK's and soon to be Monks) to avoid the stam stacking that happened at the end of Wrath.
DragonFireKai Mar 2nd 2012 3:54PM
The upcoming change to block in MoP will put shield tanks back to stam stacking anyways.
JattTheRogue Mar 2nd 2012 3:26PM
Works for me (your/Threck's solution, not Vengance). I've always found Vengance to be a boring mechanic anyway: you don't do anything to make it stack other than get hit, so why not just make it completely passive and remove all those little problems that you discussed? It would also solve the PVP issue if it was just a buff versus NPCs; aren't there still times when some class (pallies?) can still get vengance in PVP under very specific circumstances?
katyromick Mar 2nd 2012 3:32PM
To be completely honest, having tanked on all tank classes, I'd have to say I never even thought of Vengeance. I certainly never thought of standing in fire to get more Vengeance, and I tank swap as normal people do, when mechanics or damage call for it. Maybe I've been doing it wrong, but it's worked for me, and I do get a good 50% DPS. In fact my DK regularly tops the charts in 5 mans. So what I'm saying is, I completely fail to see the problem with it. Should I have been doing those things?
Miri Mar 2nd 2012 3:49PM
In a fight like H. Alys, tank DPS mattered, so standing in fire was completely logical. In 5s I do roughly 18-19K DPS as a tank and my output varies in raids. In general, the DK I tank with does more damage than I do and I was very happy to be within a couple K of him in DPS for H. Ultrax this week (first week was a 4K difference). But there are some specific gearing differences between DKs and Paladins (weapons, lol) that tip the scales in their favor (IMO).
I'd say that it's more fight specific than anything. Currently any tank swap fight that I start, my cotank has to either push a ton of output or I have to switch to auto-attacking (or walk away). I've zoned out and pulled a mob right off of him without thinking and then died because I wasn't aware of my own threat (threat is the first thing I forget about when I'm pissed or tired). Rag was ALSO a massive PITA for this and I regularly ended up walking away from the boss so I wouldn't pull him back and increase my stack count. It's just more of a headache in my mind than anything. I get what it was designed to do, but at a higher level, I would prefer it do what Theck has recommended.
Ilmyrn Mar 2nd 2012 8:00PM
As someone who hadn't raid tanked seriously since BC or early Wrath, when I was asked to step up as temporary off tank in my ten man, Vengeance was a huge issue on any fight with with tank swapping, IE, everything. Since I learned tanking in the MAX THREAT AT ALL TIMES mode, I was hitting my rotation like clockwork, hitting DPS cooldowns every time they were up, and still probably gearing more for threat than a serious tank would. They way I saw it, if my survivability wasn't immediately in danger, my job was to provide as generous a threat ceiling as possible. All of that meant that it was hard to taunt off of me and I several times pulled threat off the other tank through what I considered my normal tanking rotation. Now I did, eventually, unlearn a lot of those habits (and start Salving myself when she taunted), but it was definitely an issue.
Vengeance, in my opinion, makes tanks lazy. Maybe it'll be different when MoP's new tanking paradigm is in place, but we're not there yet.
fromnowear Mar 2nd 2012 9:20PM
You haven't been doing anything wrong Katyromick. For one thing, I think DKs experience this problem to a lesser degree as they can switch to more threat/damage-generating attacks (Heart Strike) in lieu of of death strike spam as they out-gear content.
More importantly though, if you haven't noticed the Vengeance issue on tank swaps, I would contend that your other tank probably was either getting very streaky with their Vengeance buildup (a problem in itself, as mentioned in Theck's blog), or they weren't maximizing their dps (more of a personal problem, but it masks the mechanical one).
I remember noticing this problem the most on Ragnaros tank swaps with my paladin trying to taunt/pull off of my bear tank teammate. Big swing damage (or avoidance), the Burning Wound debuff, combined with the bear's ability to stack more agi/stam compared to my paladin favoring mastery put this issue under the microscope for me. Even with preemptive taunting, popping wings, holding a SotR for the taunt, and occasionally hitting the bear with Salv still wouldn't always hold off their threat gains. That's absurd. The difference was so stark that encounters with good Vengeance would allow this bear to be doing 25k dps compared to my ~15k dps. Nothing in my rotation could be changed to compensate.
Theck's solution is very elegant and definitely would make me enjoy tanking more.
Miri Mar 2nd 2012 3:37PM
"...from standing in fire to build stacks (something I always did on Alysrazor while waiting for my egg to hatch)..."
Yep, the healers STILL talk about that to this day ;)
Vengeance is one of those things that sounds great in theory, but in implementation it is horribly lacking.
I'm completely guilty of the avoidance streaks at pull and losing a boss AND also the shittacular taunt swap hell. I think it's pretty ridiculous that I need to stop attacking or go find another target to mess with while i wait for another taunt swap.
Vengeance seems to be more of a hindrance than a help anymore. More terse words could be written on the subject, but I need to actually finish work today...
Cesar Mar 2nd 2012 4:07PM
I think a vengeance that is passive and increases with gear is an amazing idea. I had been thinking of giving every tank a type of vigilance they could put on another tank so that they're vengeances and threat would be equal and just use taunt like it was today. But that might lead to tanks literally facerolling which I don't think would turn out that great.
PodPeople Mar 2nd 2012 6:01PM
I was just thinking that too. Tanks could get an ability that transfers vengeance to the off-tank before or just after the taunt/swap. this would be a great thing to add to the "active" tanking model they are trying to go for. the other possibility I was thinking is that vengeance could be a debuff tanks have to maintain on the boss, and it multiplies the threat of the current top target by x amount or y%. this way as long as you start out at the top of the threat list you have vengeance working for you, if you have to swap (since taunt can no longer miss) the off-tank automatically gets the stacks transferred to them. they just have to actively keep the debuff up on the target(s). otherwise it's a tank fail, and DPS will over take the tanks on threat, as it should be.
Chance Mar 2nd 2012 4:22PM
Meh.... I'm not so sure I'm on board with the anti-vengence thing. Sure there are one or two fights where it was a pain (e.g. Rag) but for the most part I have yet to have an issue. And with the update to Vengence stacking to 50% off the first hit and then slowly ramping up tank swaps are no longer an issue. I tanked Rag the other week and found it insanely easy to keep threat while the other tank was still beating on Rag in full swing with his vengence fully stacked.
Having a (un)lucky avoidance streak to start off a fight may be a tad annoying, but honestly I have never once had an issue where one taunt followed by a SotR didn't put me well above the arcane mage that just had 3 crits in a row.
If vengence was how it was at the launch of cata, and we didn't receive the 500% increase to threat gen then maybe... MAYBE I could side with you on this, but as it is right now at this very moment I've yet to personally have any problems or hear about friends from other groups having problems with their threat or damage output.
Stilhelm Mar 2nd 2012 7:05PM
Your other tank you didn't have trouble keeping aggro from after taunting might be a warrior. They lose access to one of their hard-hitting abilities (Revenge) when not being actively hit, as well as not having rage generation to do much more than Devastate and Shield Slam. In fact, warriors are the only tank that is so completely hamstrung when not being hit, since they can't use Revenge and rarely will have the rage for Heroic Strike as well as losing their vengeance stacks.
If you taunt from a bear or DK, and you have no vengeance, that 60k+ Mangle or Death Strike they hit next can put them pretty far ahead in threat. Sometimes on my bear I even have to stop auto-attacking for a few seconds. It's not such a big deal if there's a couple minutes of threat built up, but taunting for that first Impale on Madness, or that first or second tank swap on Ragnaros, if the other tank doesn't stop attacking for a bit they'll probably pull aggro.
Also, on H Alysrazor, our tanks even stood in Alysrazor's firestorm to try to keep their vengeance stacks, but I think they said it didn't work. They had to swap in a few dps pieces to lower their avoidance so they could stack vengeance fast enough to kill the birds.
Chance Mar 2nd 2012 8:06PM
When I tanked on my pally my buddy would tank on his bear. This is how we did most of 4.2. Now we switched it up. He pally tanks while I bear tank. :p
Kyrt Mar 2nd 2012 4:30PM
Vengeance has a number of issues with it.
The core principle behind its existence is sound. The problem is Vengeance doesn't work that well.
Theres been balance issue in PvP. Tank DPS is artifically low - the "Vengeance'll solve it" paradigm in play. And so on.
Blizzard recently moved away from tanks worrying about threat as well in favour of playign the survival game. JHate to admit it, but thats probablya good decision.
I do have a problem with that ...and that is the way they are doing it. I'm still far from convinced that the active mitigation model, or at least what we have seen so far of it, is going to really work well. For paladins, the new ShoR design can't be be kept up 100% of the time, but there isn't much else to use with the HP. Hit ShoR or hit WOG. Not a lot of choice, even with the variation of EF/SS every 30s or so. The new HP design also strikes me as somewhat poor, as is the reduction of the toolkit and flavor/situational abilities.
However, if Blizzard were to get rid of Vengeance, then the class would need more DPS stats on its gear. Thats doable. Imagine a tank that did use DPS gear, but simply gemmed/enchanted diffferently. It would still scale with DPS, it may even be fairly close and while it could never be as good as gear tailored for DPS, you also wouldn't need Vengeance.
You'd do 80% normal DPS and you'd have your threat modifier to scale it upwards and it would auto scale with gear.
In addition, you'd lose of lot of passive dodge/parry stats which would open up the possibility of enacting active moves which generated that survivability. Think Ghost Strike...you gain a flat X% dodge for 30s.
Would this model be better? Tank with DPS gear and use active skills to generate the survivability that is currently passive?
fhatfreddy Mar 2nd 2012 5:09PM
I don't know if it would be better, but It would certainly create more loot problems.
Boobah Mar 3rd 2012 3:46AM
Why would it create more loot problems? Yes, you'd have more people going after the same pieces... but those pieces would be more common and/or have more substitutes. You'll still have the same old RNG issues, but that doesn't reflect on the suggestion; it's just the inevitable result of the way WoW distributes the shinies.
The biggest issue I'd see is that what was a wonderful tanking kit might end up horrible after the revamp and reitemization; of course that general problem is one of the reasons they tend to nerf content in the pre-expansion x.0 patch.
Novead Mar 3rd 2012 6:20AM
To be honest, I wish they'd just reverse to Vanilla style warrior tanking. Where threat has more to do with high threat abilities rather than dealing damage. The return of sunder armor, in other words. Make it impossible for tanks to do even close to the damage of DPS classes - even in 5 man dungeons - but improve the threat gained from some key abilities. Make that threat gain scale with item level.
I don't see why tanks has to do so high damage. You don't play a tank for winning the threat meters anyway, right?
And if that mage is still taking aggro in the beginning of the fight, let him die and think twice the next time he blows everything before the tank has a decent threat lead.
Novead Mar 3rd 2012 6:22AM
Eh, damage meters, not threat meters. I do believe winning the threat meters to be a central part of playing a tank!
Dimmak Mar 2nd 2012 5:00PM
Or simply design the tanks to do more damage without the mechanic of vengeance. With the coming power and defense stats Blizz has the ability to scale pvp damage easily too.
For example if you designed around this concept, DPS do 100% damage, tanks do 75% of a DPS's damage with a threat multiplier, and healers can do 50% of a DPS. (For those times you need a healer to dps or concepts like evangelism priest smite heal )
Now in PVP you can do something along these lines based on specs.
DPS 15% power, 20% defense
Tanks 30% defense
Healer 30% defense
The base power and defense stats being tied to a spec would allow them to throttle damage and survivability.
Michael Mar 22nd 2012 4:06AM
That's great for leveling, but what do you do when you hit level cap, and the changes start to be gear related.
Because as you move past tiers tanks and dps gear for different things. You've got your tanks grabbing every piece of survivability gear and your DPS grabbing gear to up their numbers. That's the whole point of vengeance. Because DPSers numbers grow thanks to their ever increasing main stats, while Tanks numbers only grow because their Str/Agi slowly increases as they get higher iLVL gear. That's why my tank's dps has only about doubled from 346 blues (from about 6k to 12k) while my DPS numbers have quadrupled or quintupled (from 8-10k to 40k).
So you can't just make it a flat percentage rate, because if you do, either tanks will start a tier outpacing dps, or they'll end a tier far behind.