The Light and How to Swing It: The case against Vengeance

Do you remember what it was like to tank before Vengeance existed? It's been a year and a half since patch 4.0.1 implemented the Cataclysm. Along with the myriad changes that followed, tanking threat was forever changed with the introduction of Vengeance. What I remember about threat generation in those halcyon days was you'd grab threat early on with an elaborate combination of burst and threat transfers from rogues and hunters, and then you'd spend the rest of the fight with one eye on Omen to make sure that shadow priest didn't sneak up on you and rip threat away.
I know this is a song that you've heard me sing many a time before, but I always found that constant threat (pardon the pun) of your DPSers ripping aggro from you to be an intrinsic, exciting part of tanking. And while I've always argued that being robbed of that aspect of our gameplay was the biggest problem with Vengeance, the fact is there are more mechanics-oriented issues with the design. Fellow paladin blogger Theck (he of numbers and pounding headaches, and the graphs that bring all the boys to the raid) has written a compelling indictment against Vengeance, recently posted on his blog, which has caused me to completely reevaluate my opinion of the design -- and not toward a more positive light.
What Vengeance was supposed to be
To quote Ghostcrawler, "Vengeance was designed for a single purpose, which is to make sure tank threat scales as other players improve their gear." That is, while DPS classes are accumulating DPS stats that increase their own threat and tanks are accumulating survivability stats with absolutely no threat benefit, tanks can still keep up with the raid DPS's threat potential by "converting" part of their survivability into threat.
And yet, at the same time, "A tank shouldn't be able to just auto-attack and let Vengeance do the rest. Vengeance isn't a replacement for the tank generating enough initial threat to get the targets to stick to her."
So when first laid out on paper, the story was this: Threat was still going to matter, and Vengeance wasn't there to make the pull any easier, just keep that shadow priest off your ass at the halfway mark. Fair enough. The devil, however, is ever in the details.
Here's where it all broke down
First and foremost, the implementation of free damage for tanks lead to tank damage being left behind. While in Ghostcrawler's initial case of Vengeance, he tossed out the hypothetical number of a tank doing 50% of the damage an actual DPS would do with Vengeance up. The reality, though, is that we're not always rocking a full stack of Vengeance. In Dragon Soul, tanks without Vengeance stacks are reliably doing about 25% the damage output of a DPS player (about 10-12k DPS, using Theck's numbers), a piddling fraction of the numbers a damage-dealer can dish out. And this introduces a host of issues.
And the Light help you if you have an avoidance streak at the start of the fight. Have fun wildly throwing out taunts to keep that mage from being eaten.
Moreover, how about the pitiable job of the off tank? Unless they're an endangered CatBearTank, what chance do they have to contribute anything to the total damage of the raid when Vengeance dictates that their damage output be anything but flaccid while the current tank gets all the Vengeance stacks, in addition to all the glory?
Then, finally, when the off tank's time has come and they get to taunt, they find themselves in the unenviable position of needing to out-threat a juggernaut with maximum Vengeance without losing aggro. In some cases, the previous tank may be forced to either stop attacking the boss or to use a macro to clear off his or her Vengeance stacks.
And in addition to that, think of the poor play that Vengeance incentivizes, from standing in fire to build stacks (something I always did on Alysrazor while waiting for my egg to hatch) to inconsistent taunt swaps to keep each tank's stacks up (all the while confusing the hell out of the healers).
Finally, in terms of scaling, consider what happens when you go back to old content in your shiny T13 tank gear. Have you done a heroic lately in that gear? How far did your Vengeance stack with all your accumulated avoidance and mitigation stats? As Theck says, "Does a DPS spec generate 50% less DPS as soon as they set foot into an instance they out-gear? Of course not. So why should we?"
What could be
It doesn't have to be this way. The biggest problem with Vengeance's implementation is that it is dependent on the tank's actually taking damage. As detailed above, using that premise as the foundation of the formula creates all sorts of problems, from reverse scaling, to avoidance making our threat weaker, to incentivizing bad play, to neutering the off tank.
The solution that Theck proposes is Vengeance to morph from a reactive, stacking bonus to something entirely different. In his design, Vengeance would give you a 50% damage bonus to NPCs and scale with the tank's stamina value. This would turn Vengeance into something that steadily increases, regardless of the content being tanked, with the additional knob to turn of how much stamina exactly offers in scaling. It's genius in its simplicity.
Ultimately, having read Theck's post, I hope his conclusion has had the same effect on you, dear reader, as it has had on me. There is something rotten in Denmark with regards to Vengeance, and not just with regards to the look and feel of tanking. Something more intrinsic and foundational. And it cries out for repair.
Filed under: Paladin, (Paladin) The Light and How to Swing It
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
sturob Mar 2nd 2012 5:16PM
Interesting thoughts on Vengeance.
...which, for since reason, reminded me of patches and xpacs ago when warrior or druid tanks would go ape-doodoo crazy when disc priests would bubble them. Because they couldn't generate rage.
Remember that?
I didn't tank then, I just had to say okay and renew and heal them up. Ha.
S
Zapwidget Mar 2nd 2012 5:45PM
A lot has been said by naysayers about "the dumbing down" of WoW. By and large, most of those complaints are trolls with rose colored glasses. The annihilation of threat, however, was a true and severe case of something being dumbed down. I never have been able to figure out where they mined this feedback that tanks didn't like having to work for threat, where we said we wanted our role to be one-dimensional.
Threat was a powerful and relevant tool, and the rallying cry the "threat is supposed to matter" is a large part of what got me excited in Cataclysm.
Now that I got that off my chest, A long time ago, and at every opportunity since, typically when the discussion turns to making accuracy relevant, I've mentioned that Vengeance, at least Vengeance decay, should be tied to our accuracy. Let it build based on how hard the target hits us, but let us keep it based on how often we hit the boss.
Argent Mar 2nd 2012 5:56PM
The only thing that I don't like about your suggestion is that Vengeance wouldn't work in PvP. Personally, I'm sick of the double standard against the Tank specs in PvP. While its very clear that the intent is to have all DPS and all Healing specs be viable in both PvP and PvE, it seems like the Development team is intent on keeping Tanking specific to one of the two types of gameplay. Its annoying when you're someone (like myself) who likes the thematics of the sword-and-board and wants to leave that playstyle as their specialization, but is expected to completely switch play styles for an entire aspect of the game. So much for making PvP and PvE cross over!
To me, the vengeance solution is a model where you're rewarded with thread for doing things you should be doing. I.E., if you're building resources, you should be causing threat. In this model, Vengeance would have a baseline threat increase (no more baked-in threat to things like Blood Presence and Bear Form, and Righteous Defense needs to seriously just leave and be passive) and as you attack, a percentage of the damage done (up to a maximum based on your Stamina) is added to your Attack Power / Spell Power / whatever. Since PvP Defense reduces the damage done to players, it would also be an effective tool against Vengeance stacking, and survivability abilities (such as Shield of the Righteous and Death Strike) would not generate vengeance, even if they attacks.
Bapo Mar 2nd 2012 6:38PM
I pvped as a prot pally back in wrath, I miss that :(
Brett Porter Mar 3rd 2012 12:31PM
The problem with your argument for keeping Vengeance in PvP is that Vengeance isn't meant soley to increase a tank spec's damage output; the main reason for Vengeance is to allow a tank's threat to scale with his survivability, so he can keep up with the DPS in a threat-based fight (i.e. PvE).
Threat (and thus Vengeance) is soley a PvE concept. The problem with it staying active in PvP (except in very specific and not very common situations) is that a tank is not only very hard to kill in PvP (usually why folks enjoy playing a tank in PvP, imo) but is also doing a shit ton of damage.
Now, I don't think tank specs were OP in PvP due to Vengeance... but they were a bit out of whack. I approved of the change to removing Vengeance from PvP, I think it only made sense.
Kyrt Mar 3rd 2012 5:59AM
@fhatfreddy
I'm not sure how such a system would create loot issues.
What you'd end up with is tanks going after DPS gear and then gemming/enchanting/reforging it with an eye towards passive survivability rather than DPS. That would provide a built in differential between DPS and tanks, and even create room in the loottables for other gear. Moreso, it would avoid some of the issue with tank gear - the need to keep drop rates low simply because there aren't that many tanks.
Sure...you would have an extra player going for the loot, but tanks often go after DPS gear for an OS anyway and drop rates could be changed to compensate for the extra demand.
The big issue with such a model would be that the gear difference between tanking and DPS would be minimal, even with the changes. It would be there, it would remove the need for Vengeance but the difference would still be minimal. You'd possibly have to rely upon a modifier of some sort to boost DPS - something like a stance system, or restricting DPS moves to 2H weapons and so on. That, and you'd need a system to replace the lost survivability stats.
Meiji Mar 5th 2012 2:08PM
You want to worry about losing aggro? Tank in ret.
I for one enjoy not having to worry about tanking a 5 man full of 398 geared dps on my tank alt and struggling to hold aggro while they do their wrath aoe faceroll.