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3-04-2012 @ 4:30PM
I'm not buying it. Plenty of evil souls for naaru to ingest... you're gonna tell me the same race that had it's leader go out of the way for a foot soldier in northrend, saying "The light does not abandon its champions" is some sort of evil diabolical race? All living beings must ingest sustenance of some sort. The naaru aren't hell-bent on conquering the universe.Also, I thought blizzard stated somewhere that Elune was not a naaru, in a blue lore post or a blizzcon panel some time. Or maybe it was because Elune mated with Malorne, which created Cenarius... and since we've never noted any other naaru to mate like this, that was the thought as to why Elune couldn't be a naaru? It was something like that - in any case that whole series of facts blows a big hole in todays TFH musings.
3-04-2012 @ 5:10PM
The question/answer you're thinking of is the following: Q: Is Elune a naaru? A: During a recent visit to Darnassus by Velen, he explained that the kaldorei's description of Elune, as well as the demonstrated powers of the goddess, matched his experiences with powerful naaru. He began to offer advice regarding how to commune with powerful naaru, but Tyrande thanked him for his opinion, then cordially requested that he refrain from making such outlandish claims when in Darnassus or in the presence of Elune's priesthood. Basically, they didn't say Elune isn't a naaru. They said the night elves aren't interested in finding out if Elune is a naaru. Biiiiig difference there.
3-04-2012 @ 5:26PM
I still think our KYL writers are way, way too fond of the whole E'lune theory, and more than happy to tear up any bit of established continuity to keep playing with it.For example, I'll stipulate the idea that diabolical!naaru can control (or at least heavily influence) folks who follow the Light. So in this scenario, An'she pushes Arthas to be extra zealous in his pursuit of first Kel'Thuzad and later Varimathras. Sure.How does that lead to the destruction of the Sunwell? See, Arthas picked up Frostmourne and consequently gave up his soul to the Lich King; he arguably has less free will at this point than the PC DKs do before Light's Hope. At this point, An'she no longer has anything to control... he's Ner'zul's tool. Which means it wasn't An'she's doing that Arthas later desecrates the Sunwell to resurrect KT, nor is it obvious that that would be something the Lich King would do.Heck, it's counterproductive, anyway, since as much as the queldorei followed any faith they followed the Light, and this genius 'plan' involves the destruction of two powerful kingdoms full of Light worshippers (Lordaeron and Quel'thalas) as well as dealing the local order of paladins a blow from which they arguably haven't yet recovered.See, a plan like "M'uru allows himself to be captured to be a beacon of the Light within the sindorei capital" makes sense. It's simple, and despite the hiccups (I somehow don't think the whole "sacrifice M'uru to open a gateway for Kil'jaeden" was sketched into the original plan) it worked, first by allowing the creation of the Blood Knights, and later by transforming the Sunwell.
3-04-2012 @ 5:57PM
you're gonna tell me the same race that had it's leader go out of the way for a foot soldier in northrend, saying "The light does not abandon its champions" is some sort of evil diabolical race?By the theory of this tfh, essentially, he faithfully served the Light and is destined to die. You flavor him with an Emerald Acorn, cook nicely with the breath of Alexstraza, and only then does Adal come to collect his soul, their food, after basting it in some Light to finish ridding itself of Scourge. If devouring souls keeps naaru in a state of Light, then the most faithful are likely to be the most succulent, regardless of rank.
3-04-2012 @ 6:11PM
The Lich King is another soul predator introduced in Azeroth's environment, fighting for the same resources as the Naaru. The Naaru then send their forces to stop the Lich King from devouring their food.The champions proceed to weaken the Lich King, then he prepares to devour their souls, exposing his weakness, the Naaru give powers to Fordring and the Light-forged Ashbringer, and he stops Frostmoune's hunger.The Lich King, the real Lich King is actually the Frozen Throne, is almost the same as the Naaru, dimensional beings from/made of Twisting Nether material.
3-04-2012 @ 6:12PM
That wasn't it Anne, although I remember it.The biggest issue I have with Elune being a naaru is the fact that she was able to mate and have children as well as being the progenitor of an entire species (the dryads) on Azeroth. As far as I can tell, the naaru are not in the business of procreation of mortal races or actually creating mortal races. Sure you have that eredar/dranaei picture up there, but they look a lot more similar than trolls and night elves.The other major point againts elune being a naaru is that the naaru don't hide who they are or what they are. Sure there is that one naaru in oshu'gun, but that naaru was injured and stuck there, not out mating and then running away and hiding.Heck, you wrote the KYL ON Elune, Malorne, and Cenarius - http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/07/17/know-your-lore-cenarius-malorne-and-ysera/Let me punch some other holes in this KYL (and btw Shade, I love you, so none of this is personal, I've just come to disagree with the "Elune is a naaru" speculation, for reasons above and others I'm about to list):all of the following is written with information taken off of the wowpedia:-Elune tried to guide the night elves AWAY from the well of eternity, in direct contradiction to the naaru who re-ignited the sunwell for the blood elves-Elune is female. Naaru are not known to have any gender-Elune sings a song of peace at night, no known analog to other naaru-Elune causes "a rain of solid moonlight to fall when her priestesses face enemies," no known naaru has done this-Elune is directly associated with night and star and blue-white magic, again no known naaru analog to this. Elune is also a direct progenitor of the druids, utilizing nature magic and the aforementioned star/moon magic - while similar with the ability to heal, the origin of the magic emanates from different sources (Sure, you can argue it's the same source with a different name... but no other naaru makes claim to have a different source of magic other than "the light.")-Elune directly made Aviana into a Demigoddess, no other naaru has bestowed that power on a mortal-Elune directly intervened to save Tyrande with a shield as Azshara's palace was coming down, no known naaru has done this (although gameplay mechanics suggest that a naaru could cast a spell like PW:S or PW:Barrier, none have directly done this to save a specific mortal)-Elune created the Moonkin - absolutely no known analogous act by any naaruRegarding the naaru being evil, I will bring up this developer quote:"...it is EXCEEDINGLY rare for a naaru to fall into a void state, and even rarer for a fallen naaru to be brought back into the Light. A naaru's fall into the void represents a catastrophic loss for the naaru and for the forces of the Light, and it is the saddest, most heart-wrenching event for the naaru to witness"I am willing to admit there are some similarities between the naaru and elune, mainly the healing properties as well as spiritual bonds between the people who follow them. But the naaru act mostly like a Mr. Miyagi - trusted and wise advisers who occasionally heal the wounded, whereas Elune is a creator, an interventionist, a god who shapes and even creates entire races and species of mortals.There are just far, far too many differences for me to buy into the "Elune is a naaru" hypothesis. Until there is some evidence that the naaru are capable of doing some of the things Elune has done, the story just doesn't add up to Elune being a naaru.Sorry for the wall of text, just wanted to cover all the bases here.
3-04-2012 @ 7:18PM
Pyro, this is in an effort to further discussion, so disregard completely if this seems heated, but regarding your list...-Elune tries to move the night elves away from the Well of Eternity (since they are essentially denying her worship by worshiping arcane), and towards her own source of power... er.. herself. Failing that, the world goes boom, and there is this Sunwell much like the previous Well, and elves are desperately trying to find a new source of magic to fill it. So why not fill it with the source of magic you wish them to be using since they seem quite bent on making it work.- prior to wow, the druids and the priestesses of Elune were two different classes completely unrelated. Since the night elves were a matriarchal race and females had Elune, men had to find something else to fill the void the Well left. They chose druidism, but to be more socially acceptable, Elune created, er gave birth to a different being to teach them this magic. Elune may not have had enough strength for them to use the Light as well as her priestesses, so other forms were given. see below.- in the War of the Ancients, Tyrande represented the leader of a religion that if she died, someone else possibly more like Azshara and less like Tyrande may have risen to power and if that happened, Elune would be severely lacking in followers than she already was. Also, we don't know if no naaru has ever done that. Somehow I am betting that if Velen was ever truly threatened, particularly back on Argus, that A'dal may very well have spared mortals for the sake of continuing this group of followers.- The most primative of religions tend to have a god of Sun and Moon. Elune and Anshe may have chosen to present themselves as such. When Anshe became separated during the sundering, Elune was the only one left to worship and empower the night elves, thus keeping up the facade meant continuing the representation of the Moon.Elune may very well have been in a void state. This would explain why she chose the Moon and Anshe took the sun as symbols. Cenarious being part nature itself understands nature anyways to teach druidism and she may have taught him arcane anyways since it was handy and she couldn't bestow her own power to him (which is why he couldn't be with her and was raised by Ysera). She may have gotten back to the Light eventually, but then the Sundering happened. This may also explain why she chose to create the Night Elves near the Well. She might still be in the Light but really weak since Night Elves became immortal after the Sundering and she was weak to begin with.Anyways, as I said before, this is just my take towards explaining things in a different way to account for Elune still being naaru. Take what you will.
3-04-2012 @ 8:10PM
Blizzard also said Mists of Pandaria wasn't an expansion pack. Then a few weeks later...
3-04-2012 @ 10:09PM
A void state naruu seems to be nearly incapable of acting. It seems to be a largely dormant state that results in them passively leaking void energies, and absorbing souls and the like. A void Elune would not likely be able to do anything like pretend to be a goddess. Something stuck in an absorptive state, does not really grant power.The most primitive religions thing applies to humans in our world. And even under the assumption that there's more to it, the draenei were not/are not, exactly heavily advanced, especially when the naruu first came to them, yet the naruu didn't pretend to be anything other than naruu." prior to wow, the druids and the priestesses of Elune were two different classes completely unrelated. Since the night elves were a matriarchal race and females had Elune, men had to find something else to fill the void the Well left. "As I understand it, the reverse is true. The males agreed to be custodians of the Dream, and the females were left to find something. In addition, both male and female nelfs revere Elune anyway.My own issues with the article are: Naruu don't appear to eat. We aren't food, or else even a light-cycle naruu would be eating souls. (else, eating is an accident entirely, since void state torpor seems to be unintentional) Honestly if they eat anything, it seems like it would be the positive energy of people being good and happy. Also, the Naruu do not seem to really be attempting to establish dominance. I have yet to see a Naruu try to take charge, they merely seem to move in, and people build stuff around them while they glow, chime, and reconfigure themselves.Anshe cannot be working with Elune as a world dominant evil naruu, because he is an option Away from Elune. He is the Tauren's second look druidism in comparison with the night elves.A few thoughts anyway.
3-04-2012 @ 10:14PM
Re: Elune is female. Well, the night elves certainly inerpret her as female, but who can say for sure? I believe that accounts of seeing Elune state she is so bright you can hardly make out her true form. Also, let's not forget a lot of religions and faiths which attribute one gender or another to the Diety of Wind, or Water, or Travels, or etc. Surely none of those abstract concepts have a gender either? But it is human nature to identify a creature as first "male or female."Re: Elune's song. Haven't you ever heard that pleasant, tinkling of chimes and bells when you approach a Naaru? ;)Not saying I agree or disagree with that theory. Just saying your counterpoints aren't all so.. counter.
3-04-2012 @ 11:25PM
My impression is that if the Naaru eat anything at all, it's good emotion, and seeing as they exude good emotion, nothing is lost around them. If good emotion is energy, with little electrons of contentment and quarks of generosity, then the Naaru are pretty much perpetual-motion machines. Remember, K'ure in Osh'gun was injured in the Naaru crash, and drew the orc ancestors there. We've seen the void-state naaru consume souls of the dead, but those paths can be inturrupted, either by demonic magic, necromancy, or something else. In the case of the orcs, shamans would offer the purest water of their homes to the ancestors, which fed into the pool K'ure rested in. This sustained him, and the ancestors were there, in balance, and left un-consumed. They didn't start being consumed, or turning to the void themselves, until after Gul'dan sealed off Osh'gun, and spoke the cipher of damnation, severing the orcs from their mountain, and the elementals, thus, they were severed from the pure water they'd used. Without nourishment, the peaceful ancestors were slowly consumed by K'ure, and this process was encouraged by the legion when they gained direct control of Osh'gun. As far as I see it, the three void-state Naaru we've seen have fallen each time due to some catastrophic, or indeed cataclysmic, force, such as a crashing vessel, and have then entered a state of complete helplessness, until they're manipulated by another's control, whether the corrupted Anorchite's necromancy, the legion's fel-magic, or the blood-magic mixed with fel by the Sunstrider faction. The naaru may be manipulative, but they seem to be both relatively fragile and sorrowful of the sacrifices they must ask of the mortals who aid them. after all, we've seen only about a dozen naaru in the entire game, who's to say that's not their entire race, or perhaps what's left of it?
3-05-2012 @ 2:08AM
"Re: Elune is female. Well, the night elves certainly inerpret her as female, but who can say for sure?"Malorne.And Cenarius.
3-05-2012 @ 4:05AM
I absolutely love the discussion all this has brought up. Fabulous. Just want to keep it going by address a few of the comments after my last one at Mar 4th 2012 6:12PM.To Icepyro:Those are all real things that happened, but none of it explain why Elune is naaru-like. In fact, I would say everything she did that you described is very un-naaru like. You made the statement "Elune would be severely lacking in followers than she already was." - I would agree that Elune likely cultivated followers. I would even take it further and postulate that Elune is somewhat greedy and overbearing on her wards the night elves and the dryads, as in she wants to be worshipped - and seeking worship is also something the naaru do not do (light state or void state, neither fits what we know of naaru behavior).Also, hopefully you'll I note try to make statements like "what we know of naaru behavior." Might Elune be some kind of strange rogue naaru who doesn't play by stuffy old naaru race's rules? That could be a possibility, but since we've never seen any other naaru do things like Elune has done, you can't use those actions to support that hypothesis either.@Jabadabadana hits the nail on the head when she(he?) says "A void state naruu seems to be nearly incapable of acting... A void Elune would not likely be able to do anything like pretend to be a goddess. Something stuck in an absorptive state, does not really grant power." K'ure, D'oru, and M'uru would back this up, although only M'uru ever reached the complete void state, which as you can see in the raid is an umistakably darkened and evil form.@Snuzzle: Cenarius is the son of Elune and Malorne. Malorne is a stag, which means unless the word "stag" means something different in azeroth, he's a male deer. Meaning the Elune would have to be female in this arrangement. This is official canon, so it is a 100% confirmation on Elune being female. (Omegan01 makes the same point in less words)@Mibu makes a great point about K'ure in Oshu'gun. A damaged naaru wouldn't necessarily start gobbling up the closest dead spirits if he had an alternate path.And again, I don't want to make like anything I'm saying is contentious or that I'm hating on Shade (that's Anne Stickney if y'all don't know). I love her and I greatly enjoy KYL and would give her a big old hug right now if she was getting all pissed at me for being contradictory. This was just one of those things where I see things very differently, regarding the statements made in this article regarding both the naaru and Elune. So, you know, I don't agree with you on this one Shade but I still think you rock. If nothing else, talking about all this has been very fun and informative and lively.
3-05-2012 @ 9:45AM
Just wanted to add to the conversation - the thing with Elune mating with Malorne to give birth to Cenarius, is a myth of sorts. They didn't necessarily have to... mate, it would be difficult given that Malorne's a stag. The giving birth part is (IMO) symbolical. In that vein, Elune could be Naaru, they've done even more amazing things than creating demigods.
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