Looking at the PvP stat changes outlined by Ghostcrawler
by Olivia Grace 
Mar 6th 2012 at 2:00PM
Disclaimer: This is not absolute. Just like the changes, it's almost impossible to see how they will play out without trying them for ourselves once the beta comes along. But I want to hear your opinions, both on these changes and on my thoughts. Let's talk it out, people!
First and foremost, I don't know about you, but I am really not digging the names. I reckon a tidy solution might be to sling in a PvP section in the character pane. If Blizzard did it within the character pane, it would just avoid the clumsiness of adding the "PvP" into the actual stat, and (I think) it would make it easy for players to understand what they were looking at.
Of course, Blizzard could call the new stats "Bob" and "Vera" for all it would really matter to their performance!
Base resilienceNow, I do think base resilience is a good idea. My fear, as I mentioned before, is that resilience with this design would scale with level, making the gap between a level 20 and a level 24 player even greater. I'm pleased Blizzard hasn't gone with this.
I do think base resilience will make low-level PvP marginally less annoying. Anyone who's been insta-killed by a rogue in full heirlooms or one-shotted by an Avenger's Shield will welcome this change, but it definitely means that classes you struggled to take down in low-level PvP before will be even harder to take down now. Of course, the above assumes that all else stays equal and that many of my PvP wishes don't come true.
Max-level PvP is where I'm not so sure about the success of base resilience. It will mean that people are somewhat harder to kill, but I don't think this is going to really help as the season progresses. Depending on the fate of our Cataclysm resilience gear and the speed of getting new gear, it will become ever harder for new PvPers to get started.
Instead of advising new players to aim for 4k resilience to get into Arena, I'll be saying they ought to aim for 2k PvP power and 2k PvP defense, replacing figures as appropriate. I don't see this as a big change.
PvP power and PvP defense
PvP power and PvP defense are touted as making it easier for players to transition between PvP and PvE. It seems from what Ghostcrawler is saying that PvP gear will have a lower ilevel than PvE gear of the same tier, and I welcome this. It's a bit silly, in my book, that in my ilvl377 crafted set on my brand new 85 discipline priest, I could wander into the Hour of Twilight heroics.
But the new PvP gear won't sacrifice one of its stats for the PvP power and PvP defense, like it does for resilience now. This means that a player in PvP gear will be more viable in PvE content. That isn't a bad thing, in my opinion, although I'm sure hardcore PvE players will disagree! However, the lower ilevel will mean PvE gear has the edge.
The main reason for that, as I see it, is to remove PvE gear from PvP. Legendaries have caused huge problems this season, as well as proc gear like pre-hotfix Vial of Shadows. Will this change accomplish that goal? We'll have to wait and see. I think it will be important to see how the power stat is distributed. If there's loads of it on weapons and trinkets (things that have procs) and clothing focuses on defense, then it could well work. If it's an even mixture, I can see players' getting to a certain level, then beginning to consider PvE items -- rather like they do now -- if the damage output remains as high from PvE procs as it currently is and PvE DPS requirements scale like they have done. Of course, we will have to wait and see!
Filed under: PvP, Mists of Pandaria
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
laudickj Mar 6th 2012 2:10PM
Agree with everything you are saying. I would also like to make a point that you hinted at, the change to the PvP gear isn't going to do anything about making it easier for PvE'ers to jump into PvP. The base resilience isn't going to do much against a fully geared PvPer with tons of Power and Defense.
Also, Blizzard is only adding more CC to the game and not taking any CC out of it, so while the Power an Defense might (and I say might) stop PvE gear from ruining PvP, all the CC in the game will still ruin PvP.
And lets not forget that Blizzard does a terrible job of balancing classes for PvP.
laudickj Mar 6th 2012 3:20PM
Why is this down voted? Everything I said was true. Its kind of sad that I get down voted just because I said something bad about Blizzard, god forbid someone says something bad about Blizzard.
l3ert Mar 6th 2012 4:12PM
Maybe it's because of your last statement that assumes your stating a fact rather than an opinion.
Jebediah54 Mar 6th 2012 4:21PM
Every time I see this argument I cringe just a little. It is a fair point, but you have to remember that the whole point of the game is to get new and better gear so you can be better than someone that doesn't have that gear. As of right now we don't know how much power/defense is going to be on this gear however, so it may only be a 15% or it could be 40%.
The biggest concern I have with this is if it's possible to make your damage against other players over 100%. Suppose a person who stacks power goes up against someone who has no PvP gear, would that make Ice Lance hit for 110% of its base or would it cap out at 100%?
laudickj Mar 6th 2012 4:29PM
While it may be an opinion, I can back up all of my arguments with very good examples. Season 5 and 9 DKs, Season 8 Spellcleaves, Season 6 or 7 Beastcleave, Lock/Shaman in Cata, Rogues right now.
If you have a discussion with any person that PvPs competitively, they will say very similar things.
zEagleEye` Mar 6th 2012 2:38PM
Thanks for a well written article.
I'm relatively new to the PvP game and have only been to BGs, TB and wintergrasp so far.
I know that the topic here was gear and stats but how about this:
One of the biggest problems of WoW game balance is that features that are needed in PvE cause imbalance in PvP and vice versa.
I have seen suggestions to make a PvP talent tree to each class but I think it's not a good idea for various reasons, main one being convenience (example - questing on a PvP realm may get interesting).
Here's the punchline:
*** Why not have spells / abilities / talents work differently in PvE and in PvP? ***
If I'm not mistaken some abilities already behave that way (e.g., isn't a Warrior's Colossus Smash impact different for PvP or against an NPC?)
This will allow for separate balancing of the PvE and PvP worlds without interaction.
I do not think it'll be extra work for the devs since all of a sudden they will have very well defined parameters without the cross linking.
Please comment and maybe the devs will get some good ideas for MoP.
laudickj Mar 6th 2012 2:55PM
Doesn't that sound so simple, but yet Blizzard refuses to do it. I don't have a link to the blue post but I remember reading that they think it would be too confusing to do that, even though many spells already work that way.
There are many things that Blizzard could do to balance PvP, some of them wouldn't even affect PvE but the bottom line is Blizzard does not think it is worth the time and resources to balance PvP so they don't. The only way they would ever truly balance it is if it became cost effective to do it, but PvP is too small compared to PvE that its just not worth it.
zEagleEye` Mar 6th 2012 3:54PM
@laudickj
I agree about Blizzard stated refusals to do so.
Maybe they need to start hearing from middle of the road players (what I consider myself) who do not raid, do not arena but do PvE questing / grinding, maybe 5 mens and BGs.
We are the backbone of the customer base, the "taxpayers" in a manner of speaking.
We are not asking for benefits or unfair stuff - only not to give us non-answers of "we cannot do X because it impacts Y". If it does, MAKE THEM IDEPENDENT of each other.
I have been playing "only" since mid-Wrath and got to the point of feeling like for some reason what I like to do is "not practical" to provide.
I like the game and do not want to see it falter.
I don't want to have to go and find another game I like as much.
But at the same time I don't like it when other people's wish-lists get implemented even if they are a minority and my not so difficult requrests are refused.
Again, if skills / spells / talents should be the same for PvP and for PvE "to eliminate confusion" and "to simplify things" how come there already ARE such things in the game?
Somehow it feels like Blizzard is trying to eat their cakes and have them too :/
I'd like to get a slice ...
This is not an ultimatum - just a statement of (subjective) facts.
The quiet majority is getting nothing while the squeaky wheels get (at least some of) what they "demand".
laudickj Mar 6th 2012 4:24PM
@EagleEye
Oh how I wish more people thought like you, especially the people at Blizzard. I remember thinking the same thing when they finally changed Colossus Smash, many abilities already act different in PvP, so why not make a few more and really balance out PvP. Heck, maybe more people would enjoy it if it was actually balanced.
Revynn Mar 6th 2012 2:52PM
Power may be the final knob they can turn to finally be able to balance PvP damage/healing without jacking up PvE balance and visa-versa.
Ice Lance one-shotting people at level 90, but Frost is still the lowest Mage spec? Reduce the Power coefficient so it doesn't hit as hard against players without further nerfing an underperforming PvE spec.
My gripe is that with all theyve said about reducing the barrier to entry for PvP, Power and Defense will only escalate it. It's hard enough to go toe-to-toe with someone in their 4K Resil set while you're sporting raid epics. It will be even worse when they don't just have stats designed to stop your damage but also make them do more damage to you . . . You'll just get steamrolled twice as fast.
I don't think I should be able to walk into RBG's in my raid set and be as effective as everyone else (likewise I feel that if you want to raid in PvP gear it should affect your performance), all I want is to not feel like the other teams punching bag.
Mir Mar 6th 2012 2:54PM
A few comments to offer.
Firstly, there is nothing at all wrong with using 377 PVP blues to get into HoTs (for all specs except non-bear tanks). We already had this discussion yesterday. The higher primary stats makes PVP blues much better than T11 purples.
Secondly, I disagree with you that this change will make it harder for people to get into PVP. Obviously we don't know for sure how the system will work numbers wise, but to me it seems like the equivalent of everyone having 2K resilience as a base stat. Sure, you can't jump into high level arena gameplay as a fresh 90, but you at least won't be supersquishy in BGs.
And laudickj, I disagree completely. Blizz actually does a very good job balancing PVP. Name one class that is terrible in both arena and rated BG. Sure, a spec here or there isn't perfect in every situation, but the same can be said for PVE. Also, why the hate for CC? Isn't that what separates good PVPers from those who aren't? If we didn't have CC, it would be just like a PVE fight. Stand there and bash away at eachother and whoever has the ighest dps/hps wins. That would be boring.
laudickj Mar 6th 2012 3:06PM
I'm not trying to sound mean, but have you ever played high levels of PvP? I mean 2200 or higher, the game is very VERY unbalanced. Have you noticed how the majority of the teams contain Lock/Shaman/X or a Rogue, or all three. What about the fact the triple DPS teams can rush in, blow all their cooldowns and beat teams with ease while taking hardly any coordination. I could go on and on about how it is unbalanced (resto druids and warriors anyone).
I don't hate CC, I agree completely that it separates good players from bad players, but when classes have multiple CCs on different DRs, it becomes a little much. Look at a mage for example, they have a 5 sec stun, 4 sec silence or 7 sec interrupt, an 8 sec spammable polymorph, Ring of Frost, 2 Frost Novas and a Imp Cone of Cold that doesn't DR with Frost Nova. Then you have Rogues, Stuns, Gouge, Garrote, Interrupt, Blind, Sap, all on short Cooldowns or no Cooldown at all (except Blind).
It has gotten to the point where there is so much CC, teams can overlap CC and make tons of mistakes, yet they can still beat you with ease.
Khirsah Mar 6th 2012 3:51PM
@laudickj...
I have never really played the highest end of PvP, but I do often check the leader boards to see what comps the top ranked teams are running, and I have found no evidence that any certain class or comp is significantly more represented than another, at least among the top ranked teams.
Most of the CC you mentioned, at least for the Rogue, either does share a DR, or breaks on damage.
Finally, you specifically mention Shaman, Lock, Rogue, and Mage as being on the strong end of the spectrum. I'm not sure what you mean by Resto Druids and Warriors being "unbalanced" because both are good in PvP, but not to the point of being OP. Add DK's and Pallies to that list, because no one is going to argue that they are hurting in PvP. Spriests can hold their own, and Disc is always demand. Jeez, that's nine of 10 classes that are all legitimate PvP contenders in at least one spec.
I'll admit that hunters are not in the best place right now overall, but a well played hunter can still ruin your day in big hurry. But that is only one class out of ten and how much more balance do you need?
Unless...
No, it can't be that simple.
You're not a Hunter, are you?
:-)
Mir Mar 6th 2012 4:45PM
I'm a multiseason gladiator laudickj. But that's besides the point.
This is just my opinion, but you're taking to narrow a view of PVP. Sure, some comps are much better than others, but my point was there isn't a single class that doesn't have some area they excel in. If you play a class that's at the lower end of the spectrum in 3v3, there's a good chance it's very good in RBG.
Greg Mar 7th 2012 8:34PM
@ Mir
"Name one class that is terrible in both arena and rated BG." Challenge accepted- Enhancement Shaman.
Here's why- they are easily kited. Ghost Wolf is too slow and does not remove snares. Enh Shaman healing is very weak and limited by a tiny mana pool. Offensive cooldowns are really defensive cooldowns (Feral Spirit restores health and isn't very powerful, it does bring a slow dash and a brief stun). The number one damage ability is a totem (searing totem). Their defensive shield totem does not scale with level, ilevel, nor attack power. The cooldown on Hex is too long.
They only match up 1v1 well against warlocks. Every other class is difficult if not impossible to beat. All things being equal, similarly skilled enhancement shaman can't come close to matching the rated BG damage of rogues, mages, priests, locks, warriors, and DKs.
I am willing to accept that I am doing something wrong. I've only been over 2k arena rating on 3 toons and 4 specs (Resto/Feral Druid [BC/Wrath], Disc Priest [Wrath], Resto Shaman [Wrath]). If you have tips for me, I really would love to hear them. Try and try, I just haven't been able to achieve the level of parity on the battlefield I enjoyed on my other toons.
My conclusion is that the Enhancement Shaman is one of the worst, if not the worst spec for PvP. Thus, it is likely terrible. Still, I am committed to playing it.
Khirsah Mar 6th 2012 10:53PM
Enhancement is not a class, it's a spec.
Tell me: how many of the rogues that beat your enhancement shammy are playing combat spec?
None of them are, because sub is the better pvp spec. One poor spec does not mean the entire class is bad.
Try again.
Greg Mar 8th 2012 12:37AM
I agree that it is not a class. But what good does a strong resto spec do for me when I don't like healing any more? Are you saying that the answer from blizzard is 'well, if you want to be competitive in PvP as a shaman, play a healer'? Why should I be forced to be a ranged dps if I don't like casting? Why should I be forced to be a severely disadvantaged PvPer because I want to play melee dps?
We can argue all day about whether Blizzard can balance every spec in the game or not, but the fact will remain that enhancement shaman are quite terrible in PvP this expansion. In the hands of a skilled player, they do a decent job. But most other classes/specs (nearly all actually), in the hands of an equally skilled player, are simply better. I think that is a design problem.
Ilmyrn Mar 6th 2012 2:56PM
One thing that I REALLY think Blizzard needs to do is flat out BAN Legendaries from rated PVP, whether BGs or Arenas. Would this make anyone angry?
As for baseline Resilience (Sorry, I mean PVP Defense), I wonder if they'll make it not stack with Resilience gear. If it does stack, then it's not closing any gaps. That kitted out rogue is still going to be impervious to you. But if it doesn't stack, then sure, he's got more resilience than you, but not as much.
I also wonder if we won't see a similar level of PVP Power made baseline.
Ozzard Mar 6th 2012 3:02PM
"Would this make anyone angry?"
Yes - the folks who have legendaries :-). Meanwhile I'll be sitting there with a bag of popcorn watching the fun.
Ilmyrn Mar 6th 2012 3:05PM
Fair enough. Except, of course, that if you do it when MoP launches, you're not taking anything away, since rated PVP will be level 90 only and no one will have level 90 Legendaries.