Daxxarri clarifies PvP and PvE gear changes in Mists of Pandaria
by Mathew McCurley 
Mar 7th 2012 at 5:00PM
Blizzard is making this change for many reasons, one of which is to stop player abuse of PvP gear's item level to inflate their scores to enter dungeons via the Dungeon and Raid Finders earlier than they should. Resilience is being changed to a PvP-centric stat that does not cost anything in an item's budget and enhances the item's effectiveness in PvP. The item's effectiveness in PvE, however, would be that of similarly leveled PvE gear.
This turns the best PvP gear into relatively decent PvE gear with a lower item level. The highest tier of PvP gear will still be the best gear for fighting other players because of the new stat that the highest tier of PvE gear is lacking, regardless of item level. If you PvP, wear PvP gear. If you PvE, wear PvE gear. Now, however, going between the two won't be as severe as it is right now.
Hit the jump for Daxxarri's posts and explanations in full regarding PvP and PvE gear.
Daxxarri -- PvP gear in MoP
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If they keep comming out with expansions the pve problem will take care of its self.
If they keep comming out with expansions the pve problem will take care of its self.
I feel like I should take some time to better relay the development team's intentions when it comes to how PvP stats will work in Mists.
There are two important changes to PvP itemization coming:
1. We're splitting Resilience into an offensive and defensive component.
2. All players will have at least 30% damage reduction versus other players.
If you want to do more damage to other players in Mists, you have two options. You can get better PvE gear with more offensive stats, or you can get better PvP gear with slightly smaller offensive stats built in(because PvP gear is lower item level), but which will also give you more damage against players specifically. In today's game, stacking PvE gear is really the only way to do more damage to other players in PvP since Resilience only supplies a defensive bonus. These are completely made up numbers, but imagine PvE gear is 100% effective in PvE and 75% effective in PvP. PvP gear is 50% effective in PvE, but 100% effective in PvP -- despite its lower item level, it wins out over PvE gear when used for its intended purpose.
Here are some examples:
Ders the rogue: wears PvE gear.
Jillian the hunter: wears PvP gear.
In Cataclysm PvE, Ders does much better damage than Jillian in PvE, because her PvP gear "wastes" stat budget on Resilience.
In Cataclysm PvP, Ders does better damage than Jillian for the same reason. However, when Jillian hits Ders, he doesn't mitigate her damage at all. The result is high burst damage on both sides.
In Mists PvE, Ders still does better damage than Jillian, because his higher ilevel PvE gear has more offensive stats. The difference is smaller however because Jillian's PvP stats aren't part of the item budget.
The item level difference is the main distinction.
In Mists PvP, they both do about the same amount of raw damage to each other, with a slight edge for Jillian. Her power stat offsets Ders's PvE stats. Jillian takes less damage because of her PvP Defense (let's say it's 50% damage reduction), but Ders still has 30% damage reduction innately, so he doesn't blow up either. Again the difference is smaller. If Ders wants to get serious about PvP, he's eventually going to want PvP gear, and Jillian will want more PvE gear to do PvE.
Another way to think about it is that we are pushing PvP and PvE gear closer together with two changes: A player in PvE gear always has some base PvP defense (it's like a little PvP gear for free). A player in PvP gear can do more damage and healing than today in PvP because of the new Power stat (it's like a little PvE gear for free).
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Daxx that makes it seem like your trying to make pvp gear worse for pve while making pve gear similar to how it is now.
Daxx that makes it seem like your trying to make pvp gear worse for pve while making pve gear similar to how it is now.
Perhaps I didn't explain clearly enough, if that's the impression you're getting.
Right now, if you walk into PvP using PvE gear, odds are there are some dudes that aren't wearing any resilience at all that you can probably blow up. On the same token, even when fighting players that have resilience, your raw output is higher compared to them, because you have more raw dps (or healing) stats on your PvE gear.
In Mists, everyone will be a bit tougher, so even fresh PvPers aren't as likely to get insta-gibbed, making pure PvE gear less useful straight out of the gate. At the higher end, a PvP geared player will both do more damage in PvP and take less damage in PvP than a player in similarly powerful PvE gear.
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I think the overall design idea is that the starting points for the two major areas are closer, but they each scale within their area significantly faster. I.e., It's possible to get into PvP without already having PvP gear, but PvP gear is overall just better. The opposite would also be true.
I think the overall design idea is that the starting points for the two major areas are closer, but they each scale within their area significantly faster. I.e., It's possible to get into PvP without already having PvP gear, but PvP gear is overall just better. The opposite would also be true.
A nice summary!
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So, essentially... the changes do nothing to reduce the barrier to entry of PvE->PVP
Instead they only work to make it easier for PvPers to enter PvE.
So, essentially... the changes do nothing to reduce the barrier to entry of PvE->PVP
Instead they only work to make it easier for PvPers to enter PvE.
A not so nice summary! That is not what I wrote.
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Ders is in full PvP gear except for one PvE trinket with an extremely overpowered proc in PvP contexts.
Ders is in full PvP gear except for one PvE trinket with an extremely overpowered proc in PvP contexts.
So, right now, there isn't an alternative to using awesome PvE gear in PvP. A great PvE trinket beats anything from PvP.
In 5.0 a trinket with PvP stats should beat out a PvE trinket in PvP.
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I invite everyone to carefully read the words I posted in this thread. I invite you to read them with an open mind, and without the presuppositions which so often act as an impediment to mutual understanding.
I chose to post here specifically because I know this issue is important to you. Don't waste the opportunity to have a dialogue by willfully misinterpreting or reinterpreting what has been written. If you're confused, or you have a question, then say so or ask it. My intention here is to make the incoming system as clear as possible.
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People are concerned over whether powerful PvE weapons and trinkets will continue to dominate the competitive scene, which, considering WoW's past history, is a very legitimate concern.
People are concerned over whether powerful PvE weapons and trinkets will continue to dominate the competitive scene, which, considering WoW's past history, is a very legitimate concern.
One I've at least partially already addressed. The goal is to make a PvP item pretty much always the best choice, even in trinket slots.
Legendary items might be an outlier, because legendary items are legendary, and the additional item levels will probably make them competitive with PvP items. On the other hand, we also expect legendary items to be *much* more rare than they are currently, so they'll also be less of a factor.
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-- Do you intend for legendary weapons to be best in slot for PvP classes capable of using them? If so, wouldn't this be contradictory to the design philosophy behind this change?
-- Do you intend for legendary weapons to be best in slot for PvP classes capable of using them? If so, wouldn't this be contradictory to the design philosophy behind this change?
Answered a bit earlier.
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-- When you state that PvE gear will have a higher item level than "equivalent" PvP gear, are you referring to normal or heroic raiding gear?
-- When you state that PvE gear will have a higher item level than "equivalent" PvP gear, are you referring to normal or heroic raiding gear?
Perhaps I misunderstood the question? I'm referring to gear, in general. If we were to compare introductory PvE gear with introductory PvP gear, the PvP gear would have a lower item level, but would be stacked with lots of 'free' PvP Power and Defense that don't count against that items item budget. In reality, it would be just as, if not more powerful than the equivalent PvE item, but exclusively for the purposes of PvP.
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-- What do the developers plan to do with PvP trinkets in order to make them best in slot for PvP again? Insignias and Emblems are underpowered in PvP while proc-based trinkets like Vial of Shadows and especially Cunning of the Cruel are far too powerful.
-- What do the developers plan to do with PvP trinkets in order to make them best in slot for PvP again? Insignias and Emblems are underpowered in PvP while proc-based trinkets like Vial of Shadows and especially Cunning of the Cruel are far too powerful.
I know what the design intention is, but I don't have any specific examples to hand. It might even still be a bit too early to have specifics. Still, I'll ask and see if I can't expand on this a bit.
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-- Have you ever considered implementing a stat on PvE gear that's reminiscent to PvP Power and Defense, but for PvE scenarios? For example, a stat that increases damage dealt to non-player characters only?
-- Have you ever considered implementing a stat on PvE gear that's reminiscent to PvP Power and Defense, but for PvE scenarios? For example, a stat that increases damage dealt to non-player characters only?
In a way, this is already the case. There are stats that are of great value in PvE that are extremely sparse in PvP items, and also extremely weak in PvP. Hit is a good example.
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Daxxari, you asked me about a page and a half ago to state my example.
I stated it, and you haven't responded to it.
Daxxari, you asked me about a page and a half ago to state my example.
I stated it, and you haven't responded to it.
I've responded to it at least twice, once before you asked it specifically and failed to address the 'there are HUGE things that don't add up simply because they cannot' that were supposedly at issue with the system. In reality, you were just still worried about PvE trinkets in PvP, not the system we're discussing specifically.
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So... you came here bearing elaborations when it was too early to even elaborate..?
>_>
So... you came here bearing elaborations when it was too early to even elaborate..?
>_>
There's a difference between being able to discuss our intentions regarding how PvP stats should work overall, and knowing exactly how individual trinkets are going to perform, complete with stats.
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That sounds great, honestly. I just wonder how committed you (Blizzard) is to this concept.
That sounds great, honestly. I just wonder how committed you (Blizzard) is to this concept.
Well, we aren't particularly happy with the way some of these PvE burst trinkets (Cunning and Vial in particular) have worked out in PvP. Future trinkets aren't likely to follow the same model, though we do want to make trinkets powerful and interesting when we can. We can make PvP trinkets compelling by (just for example) doing things like offering proc or on-use effect to provide PvP Power, much as we already have equivalent PvE trinkets that proc strength or spell power.
If we still run into issues with out of control trinkets, then we have levers we can pull, like adjusting the internal cooldown, or reducing the spikiness of their output. Either way, allowing Cunning of the Cruel to be so dominant in PvP qualifies as a misstep.
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I'm trying to get my head around it, would you say PVP power in a sense is like +100 damage against undead enchants, or more of a Res pen?
I'm trying to get my head around it, would you say PVP power in a sense is like +100 damage against undead enchants, or more of a Res pen?
Think +damage, not penetration. Your PvP Power isn't less valuable if your target isn't already stacked with PvP Defense.
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Wait wait wait...What about healers? How do they fit into this equation? Can healers just wear PvE gear?
Wait wait wait...What about healers? How do they fit into this equation? Can healers just wear PvE gear?
PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.
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Filed under: PvP, Mists of Pandaria
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Ilmyrn Mar 7th 2012 5:06PM
It seems like, in PVE, PVP gear will be perfectly equal to PVE gear for healers then, since for the most part the only thing healers are healing is other players.
It'll be interesting to see how Blizzard handles this, or if they even think it's a large enough problem to address.
Shrikesnest Mar 7th 2012 5:23PM
Presumably it will only increase healing on pvp flagged players.
synthparadox Mar 7th 2012 5:25PM
Yes but given that PvP stats don't count towards the itemization, and PvP gear having lower iLvls, it means the other stats will be lower (intellect/spirit/stam/etc) so in PvE it'll always be better to wear PvE gear.
(cutaia) Mar 7th 2012 5:25PM
"It seems like, in PVE, PVP gear will be perfectly equal to PVE gear for healers then, since for the most part the only thing healers are healing is other players."
Draxxaraarai said that, "PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations," so I think we can assume it will only do so in those PvP Situations. Perhaps via PvP flag status of the person being healed + zone, etc.
Ilmyrn Mar 7th 2012 5:27PM
Thanks for the clarification about it only working in PVP situations. I didn't see that when I read it.
Ilmyrn Mar 7th 2012 5:31PM
Actually, on further thought, that doesn't clear up anything.
If PVP healing gear's PVP power to boost healing throughput on other players is activated by targeting a flagged player, then what's there to stop a tank from flagging themselves to boost their PVP geared healer's effectiveness? If it only works when the heal target is engaged in PVP combat, how does that work in a hybrid PVP/PVE scenario? For example, a city raid while fighting a faction leader, or a rival guild attempting to gank your raid while you're fighting a world raid boss?
Stilhelm Mar 7th 2012 5:48PM
Your PVP gear can be pretty close in healing power to PVE gear today as well. The big difference is that in PVP today, if you only have PVE gear, and you're a healer, you'll die immediately. In PVP gear, you last longer in PVP but will not have the ability to last through a 5-10 minute PVE encounter.
In Mists, you'll still want PVP gear for PVP, even for healing, because of the PVP defense stat. The difference is that today in PVE gear, you'll feel like you are made of tissue paper in a battleground or arena. In Mists, you'll have some baseline damage reduction built in, so you'll be able to cross over much easier.
Today, if you gear up raiding, and then decide you want to PvP, you have to either start with a crafted PVP set, suffering a huge reduction in stats, and die a lot while you get honor to upgrade your PVP gear, or go in your PVE gear, and die a lot more easily while you get honor to build a set of PVP gear.
In Mists, you should be able to go PVP with your shiny new raid gear about as effectively as if you had the last season's PVP gear. You'll have about the same power versus players, due to your higher item level, but you'll be lacking the extra PVP defense the PVP gear also carries.
Personally, I think they should take it a step farther. Increase the built-in damage reduction to whatever they feel is appropriate, remove all PVP-related stats (only their new PVP power/defense now), and make the PVP gear the same level PVE gear, i.e. conquest gear is equal to valor gear. Then, you can get the same level of gear whether you raid or PVP. They could even give valor/conquest points a combined limit to reduce the "obligation" to do both PVE and PVP to gear up more quickly, or maybe even combine the PVE and PVP points systems.
You'd still want a few pieces of gear specific to each spec, since you need more hit/expertise for PVE bosses. However, this makes it so much easier to play how you like without locking you into a particular path.
Stilhelm Mar 7th 2012 5:46PM
Your PVP gear can be pretty close in healing power to PVE gear today as well. The big difference is that in PVP today, if you only have PVE gear, and you're a healer, you'll die immediately. In PVP gear, you last longer in PVP but will not have the ability to last through a 5-10 minute PVE encounter.
In Mists, you'll still want PVP gear for PVP, even for healing, because of the PVP defense stat. The difference is that today in PVE gear, you'll feel like you are made of tissue paper in a battleground or arena. In Mists, you'll have some baseline damage reduction built in, so you'll be able to cross over much easier.
Today, if you gear up raiding, and then decide you want to PvP, you have to either start with a crafted PVP set, suffering a huge reduction in stats, and die a lot while you get honor to upgrade your PVP gear, or go in your PVE gear, and die a lot more easily while you get honor to build a set of PVP gear.
In Mists, you should be able to go PVP with your shiny new raid gear about as effectively as if you had the last season's PVP gear. You'll have about the same power versus players, due to your higher item level, but you'll be lacking the extra PVP defense the PVP gear also carries.
Personally, I think they should take it a step farther. Increase the built-in damage reduction to whatever they feel is appropriate, remove all PVP-related stats (only their new PVP power/defense now), and make the PVP gear the same level PVE gear, i.e. conquest gear is equal to valor gear. Then, you can get the same level of gear whether you raid or PVP. They could even give valor/conquest points a combined limit to reduce the "obligation" to do both PVE and PVP to gear up more quickly, or maybe even combine the PVE and PVP points systems.
You'd still want a few pieces of gear specific to each spec, since you need more hit/expertise for PVE bosses. However, this makes it so much easier to play how you like without locking you into a particular path.
fatherland Mar 7th 2012 6:09PM
What you have to remember is that PVP gear is equivalent to a tier behind PVE gear, but that PVP spicific stats are unaccounted for. Let me make up some healer gear just to illustrate.
PVE ring
100 int
100 haste
100 stam
PVP ring
85 int
85 haste
85 stam
30 power (PVP) i.e., +damage and + healing during PVP
30 defense (PVP) i.e., damage reduction during PVP
See in a PVE situation, the PVP gear is clearly not as good as the PVE ring, however is still usable to get you through a few heroics by getting your stats withing striking distance. The PVE gear is usable for PVE, but not as good.
In a PVP situation, the PVP gear gains effectiveness because the "power" and "defense" stats come into play making this ring better by just being in a PVP situation. A character with the PVE ring on in a BG will only have the base amount of defense, allowing them a place to start, but not being in as good a position as someone who has actual PVP gear on. Again, usable, but not as good.
Jebediah54 Mar 7th 2012 7:39PM
I haven't tried this in a while, but as far as I know you can't flag yourself for PvP when you're inside of an instance so a tank won't be able to boost their healers' effectiveness just by that (and besides, they'll be taking more damage from the mobs anyway that might make it not worth it). In a world boss situation, I'd expect it to be totally legitimate to wear PvP gear in case someone/a group tries to kill you all.
Snuzzle Mar 8th 2012 12:33PM
@Stillhelm
But if both PVE gear and PVP gear were of exactly equal quality, and you could grind each individually per week (ie, as it is now, with a Conquest pool separate from a Valor pool) then a lot of folks would feel "forced" to do both PVE and PVP to gear up twice as fast. And before you say they wouldn't, they already proved yes they certainly would when 10 and 25 player raids had separate lockouts.
The only way this would work if there was a shared pool with both PVE and PVP points adding to it (a lower and a higher pool still though) but then at that point there might as well be just one gear set for both playstyles too.
Tyler Mar 7th 2012 5:08PM
Blizz should have killed arenas in BC when they said they wanted to.
Michael Mar 7th 2012 5:25PM
What is happening? This exact blue post was put up last night. Earlier today a post about PvP and PvE gear that didn't make any sense, because this blue post already existed. Now, the blue post again. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
(cutaia) Mar 7th 2012 5:35PM
Olivia's article was probably already finished and in the can last night and merely went up today at the time it was scheduled.
Ilmyrn Mar 7th 2012 5:36PM
Not everyone reads the daily blue post roundup, and this is fairly important information for anyone who's concerned over the new direction PVP and PVE gear are taking.
Mir Mar 7th 2012 5:28PM
Ilmyrn: You forgot the "in PVP situations" part. Turn the power on in BGs/areana, and turn it off in dungeons/raids. World PVP is more uncertain....turn on when flagged?
Nathanyel Mar 7th 2012 5:34PM
I don't see how PvE gear would be "good for PvP" in this system. Sure, the basic Resilience closes the gap a bit, but in later tiers, you will do less damage, but receive far more damage than a player in PvP gear - while on the other hand PvP gear sounds like being between current and previous tier PVe gear.
TimR Mar 7th 2012 5:47PM
"received far more damage" is purely speculation at the moment. Without seeing the gear and how it actually functions, we don't know how it will exactly work.
Say PVE gear allows you to do X damage to a player.
PVP gear might do 110% of X to players and 90% of X in PVE. Or it could be 101% and 99%. Or 120% and 80%.
It's impossible to tell at the moment. Based on their stated goal, I believe PVP gear will give you a moderate edge in PVP, and PVE gear will give you a moderate edge in PVE.
Ilmyrn Mar 7th 2012 5:48PM
Remember, everyone will have 30% baseline Resilience, and PVE gear of the same 'tier' will have higher ilvl than PVP gear, and thus more stats.
Stilhelm Mar 7th 2012 5:53PM
Since the PVP power/defense stats are not allocated out of the stat budget, then higher level gear may not necessarily increase the PVP power beyond the effective power of the higher level PVE gear. They may also not necessarily increase the PVP defense stat beyond what they want PVP-geared players to have. Rather than starting an expansion with 30% damage reduction in a full set of PVP gear, and ending with 50%, a full set of PVP gear may give only another 10 or 20 percent damage reduction from players in both the first and last tier.