Daxxarri clarifies PvP and PvE gear changes in Mists of Pandaria
by Mathew McCurley 
Mar 7th 2012 at 5:00PM
Blizzard is making this change for many reasons, one of which is to stop player abuse of PvP gear's item level to inflate their scores to enter dungeons via the Dungeon and Raid Finders earlier than they should. Resilience is being changed to a PvP-centric stat that does not cost anything in an item's budget and enhances the item's effectiveness in PvP. The item's effectiveness in PvE, however, would be that of similarly leveled PvE gear.
This turns the best PvP gear into relatively decent PvE gear with a lower item level. The highest tier of PvP gear will still be the best gear for fighting other players because of the new stat that the highest tier of PvE gear is lacking, regardless of item level. If you PvP, wear PvP gear. If you PvE, wear PvE gear. Now, however, going between the two won't be as severe as it is right now.
Hit the jump for Daxxarri's posts and explanations in full regarding PvP and PvE gear.
Daxxarri -- PvP gear in MoP
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If they keep comming out with expansions the pve problem will take care of its self.
If they keep comming out with expansions the pve problem will take care of its self.
I feel like I should take some time to better relay the development team's intentions when it comes to how PvP stats will work in Mists.
There are two important changes to PvP itemization coming:
1. We're splitting Resilience into an offensive and defensive component.
2. All players will have at least 30% damage reduction versus other players.
If you want to do more damage to other players in Mists, you have two options. You can get better PvE gear with more offensive stats, or you can get better PvP gear with slightly smaller offensive stats built in(because PvP gear is lower item level), but which will also give you more damage against players specifically. In today's game, stacking PvE gear is really the only way to do more damage to other players in PvP since Resilience only supplies a defensive bonus. These are completely made up numbers, but imagine PvE gear is 100% effective in PvE and 75% effective in PvP. PvP gear is 50% effective in PvE, but 100% effective in PvP -- despite its lower item level, it wins out over PvE gear when used for its intended purpose.
Here are some examples:
Ders the rogue: wears PvE gear.
Jillian the hunter: wears PvP gear.
In Cataclysm PvE, Ders does much better damage than Jillian in PvE, because her PvP gear "wastes" stat budget on Resilience.
In Cataclysm PvP, Ders does better damage than Jillian for the same reason. However, when Jillian hits Ders, he doesn't mitigate her damage at all. The result is high burst damage on both sides.
In Mists PvE, Ders still does better damage than Jillian, because his higher ilevel PvE gear has more offensive stats. The difference is smaller however because Jillian's PvP stats aren't part of the item budget.
The item level difference is the main distinction.
In Mists PvP, they both do about the same amount of raw damage to each other, with a slight edge for Jillian. Her power stat offsets Ders's PvE stats. Jillian takes less damage because of her PvP Defense (let's say it's 50% damage reduction), but Ders still has 30% damage reduction innately, so he doesn't blow up either. Again the difference is smaller. If Ders wants to get serious about PvP, he's eventually going to want PvP gear, and Jillian will want more PvE gear to do PvE.
Another way to think about it is that we are pushing PvP and PvE gear closer together with two changes: A player in PvE gear always has some base PvP defense (it's like a little PvP gear for free). A player in PvP gear can do more damage and healing than today in PvP because of the new Power stat (it's like a little PvE gear for free).
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Daxx that makes it seem like your trying to make pvp gear worse for pve while making pve gear similar to how it is now.
Daxx that makes it seem like your trying to make pvp gear worse for pve while making pve gear similar to how it is now.
Perhaps I didn't explain clearly enough, if that's the impression you're getting.
Right now, if you walk into PvP using PvE gear, odds are there are some dudes that aren't wearing any resilience at all that you can probably blow up. On the same token, even when fighting players that have resilience, your raw output is higher compared to them, because you have more raw dps (or healing) stats on your PvE gear.
In Mists, everyone will be a bit tougher, so even fresh PvPers aren't as likely to get insta-gibbed, making pure PvE gear less useful straight out of the gate. At the higher end, a PvP geared player will both do more damage in PvP and take less damage in PvP than a player in similarly powerful PvE gear.
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I think the overall design idea is that the starting points for the two major areas are closer, but they each scale within their area significantly faster. I.e., It's possible to get into PvP without already having PvP gear, but PvP gear is overall just better. The opposite would also be true.
I think the overall design idea is that the starting points for the two major areas are closer, but they each scale within their area significantly faster. I.e., It's possible to get into PvP without already having PvP gear, but PvP gear is overall just better. The opposite would also be true.
A nice summary!
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So, essentially... the changes do nothing to reduce the barrier to entry of PvE->PVP
Instead they only work to make it easier for PvPers to enter PvE.
So, essentially... the changes do nothing to reduce the barrier to entry of PvE->PVP
Instead they only work to make it easier for PvPers to enter PvE.
A not so nice summary! That is not what I wrote.
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Ders is in full PvP gear except for one PvE trinket with an extremely overpowered proc in PvP contexts.
Ders is in full PvP gear except for one PvE trinket with an extremely overpowered proc in PvP contexts.
So, right now, there isn't an alternative to using awesome PvE gear in PvP. A great PvE trinket beats anything from PvP.
In 5.0 a trinket with PvP stats should beat out a PvE trinket in PvP.
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I invite everyone to carefully read the words I posted in this thread. I invite you to read them with an open mind, and without the presuppositions which so often act as an impediment to mutual understanding.
I chose to post here specifically because I know this issue is important to you. Don't waste the opportunity to have a dialogue by willfully misinterpreting or reinterpreting what has been written. If you're confused, or you have a question, then say so or ask it. My intention here is to make the incoming system as clear as possible.
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People are concerned over whether powerful PvE weapons and trinkets will continue to dominate the competitive scene, which, considering WoW's past history, is a very legitimate concern.
People are concerned over whether powerful PvE weapons and trinkets will continue to dominate the competitive scene, which, considering WoW's past history, is a very legitimate concern.
One I've at least partially already addressed. The goal is to make a PvP item pretty much always the best choice, even in trinket slots.
Legendary items might be an outlier, because legendary items are legendary, and the additional item levels will probably make them competitive with PvP items. On the other hand, we also expect legendary items to be *much* more rare than they are currently, so they'll also be less of a factor.
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-- Do you intend for legendary weapons to be best in slot for PvP classes capable of using them? If so, wouldn't this be contradictory to the design philosophy behind this change?
-- Do you intend for legendary weapons to be best in slot for PvP classes capable of using them? If so, wouldn't this be contradictory to the design philosophy behind this change?
Answered a bit earlier.
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-- When you state that PvE gear will have a higher item level than "equivalent" PvP gear, are you referring to normal or heroic raiding gear?
-- When you state that PvE gear will have a higher item level than "equivalent" PvP gear, are you referring to normal or heroic raiding gear?
Perhaps I misunderstood the question? I'm referring to gear, in general. If we were to compare introductory PvE gear with introductory PvP gear, the PvP gear would have a lower item level, but would be stacked with lots of 'free' PvP Power and Defense that don't count against that items item budget. In reality, it would be just as, if not more powerful than the equivalent PvE item, but exclusively for the purposes of PvP.
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-- What do the developers plan to do with PvP trinkets in order to make them best in slot for PvP again? Insignias and Emblems are underpowered in PvP while proc-based trinkets like Vial of Shadows and especially Cunning of the Cruel are far too powerful.
-- What do the developers plan to do with PvP trinkets in order to make them best in slot for PvP again? Insignias and Emblems are underpowered in PvP while proc-based trinkets like Vial of Shadows and especially Cunning of the Cruel are far too powerful.
I know what the design intention is, but I don't have any specific examples to hand. It might even still be a bit too early to have specifics. Still, I'll ask and see if I can't expand on this a bit.
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-- Have you ever considered implementing a stat on PvE gear that's reminiscent to PvP Power and Defense, but for PvE scenarios? For example, a stat that increases damage dealt to non-player characters only?
-- Have you ever considered implementing a stat on PvE gear that's reminiscent to PvP Power and Defense, but for PvE scenarios? For example, a stat that increases damage dealt to non-player characters only?
In a way, this is already the case. There are stats that are of great value in PvE that are extremely sparse in PvP items, and also extremely weak in PvP. Hit is a good example.
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Daxxari, you asked me about a page and a half ago to state my example.
I stated it, and you haven't responded to it.
Daxxari, you asked me about a page and a half ago to state my example.
I stated it, and you haven't responded to it.
I've responded to it at least twice, once before you asked it specifically and failed to address the 'there are HUGE things that don't add up simply because they cannot' that were supposedly at issue with the system. In reality, you were just still worried about PvE trinkets in PvP, not the system we're discussing specifically.
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So... you came here bearing elaborations when it was too early to even elaborate..?
>_>
So... you came here bearing elaborations when it was too early to even elaborate..?
>_>
There's a difference between being able to discuss our intentions regarding how PvP stats should work overall, and knowing exactly how individual trinkets are going to perform, complete with stats.
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That sounds great, honestly. I just wonder how committed you (Blizzard) is to this concept.
That sounds great, honestly. I just wonder how committed you (Blizzard) is to this concept.
Well, we aren't particularly happy with the way some of these PvE burst trinkets (Cunning and Vial in particular) have worked out in PvP. Future trinkets aren't likely to follow the same model, though we do want to make trinkets powerful and interesting when we can. We can make PvP trinkets compelling by (just for example) doing things like offering proc or on-use effect to provide PvP Power, much as we already have equivalent PvE trinkets that proc strength or spell power.
If we still run into issues with out of control trinkets, then we have levers we can pull, like adjusting the internal cooldown, or reducing the spikiness of their output. Either way, allowing Cunning of the Cruel to be so dominant in PvP qualifies as a misstep.
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I'm trying to get my head around it, would you say PVP power in a sense is like +100 damage against undead enchants, or more of a Res pen?
I'm trying to get my head around it, would you say PVP power in a sense is like +100 damage against undead enchants, or more of a Res pen?
Think +damage, not penetration. Your PvP Power isn't less valuable if your target isn't already stacked with PvP Defense.
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Wait wait wait...What about healers? How do they fit into this equation? Can healers just wear PvE gear?
Wait wait wait...What about healers? How do they fit into this equation? Can healers just wear PvE gear?
PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.
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Filed under: PvP, Mists of Pandaria
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Artificial Mar 7th 2012 6:06PM
"...receive far more damage..." So, yes, if you assume they're lying about closing the gap (as you're doing here), it would follow that it won't have the intend effect. OTOH, if they actually do what they said, your premise would be false, and PvE gear would be good for PvP, just not as good as PvP gear.
Revynn Mar 7th 2012 6:15PM
It's because PvE gear will have the higher ilvl advantage. To put recognizable numbers to it, Season 11 gear is currently ilvl 398-ish (I think, I don't PvP) where as normal mode raid gear is 397. Under MoP's system, Season 11 gear would be more like ilvl 375, and its primary/secondary stats budgeted accordingly, but would also have a ton of Power and Defense to go along with it.
What they're trying to accomplish is this:
PvE person goes into random, unrated BG's and has a significant amount more primary and secondary stats as well as the larger health pool to go along with it, but zero Power and only the base amount of Defense. Chances are he'll still be kicked around like a crumpled can, but at least he'll get a few good shots in before he goes down instead of being globaled. If he knows what he's doing he may also take a couple people down with him. He'll still need PvP gear if he wants to do competitive PvP, but at least he won't be the other teams punching bag in his raid gear.
Meanwhile, 2600 rated player decked out in current season PvP gear wants to run tier 15 Fortress of the New Evil Guy to get a shot at that rare drop mount. Her PvP gear is a lower ilvl and equivalent to tier 14 PvE gear. She won't be as effective as a someone in current tier 15 raid gear, but she'll be able to still hold her own on the meters.
However, my concern is scaling. I feel like this all may work out fine early on in the expansion, but after a season or two, the gap will widen as Power and Defense levels escalate until were back to "bring PvP gear to your random BG's or get globaled".
Boobah Mar 7th 2012 6:28PM
"...a full set of PVP gear may give only another 10 or 20 percent damage reduction from players in both the first and last tier. "
Hadn't considered that; I like it though.
It's also worth pointing out, though, that making it an actual stat means that you can build some interesting trinket effects using PvPower or PvDefense, which should help with the problem of needing to bring PvE trinkets into PvP.
Snuzzle Mar 8th 2012 12:47PM
@Artificial
It's not about lying, it's about things not working out quite as planned, as often happens. Maybe this works great for the first tier, but doesn't scale so well (when pvp players are rocking 40% extra resilience over a pve player and his base 30%). Who knows. It wouldn't be unprecidented.
zEagleEye` Mar 7th 2012 5:50PM
Sorry but the game is still tilted towards the PvE players and against the PvP players.
Legendaries are no longer legendaries - they are quite VISIBLE.
When you had 1-3 per server it was one thing. Today the quantity makes a difference.
I have a question that involves an open mind:
When you try to queue for Heroics there is an iLvl threshold that you need to pass.
When you queue for a BG there is not requriement other than your own level.
This means that when I queue for a Heroic, if I wear PvP gear I'll hear about it and maybe get kicked out because I would supposedly be detrimental to the team's success.
It also means that if I queue for a BG, if I wear PvE gear with no resil at all I will be detrimental to the success of the team in a similar manner, but the PvP team has no way of trying to deal with this (unless there is a new kick I have not heard of yet since even AFKs can only be reported but not kicked).
I understand the concept of the PvE team wanting to succeed, but what about the PvP team that wants to succeed?
If I want to go to PvE from the PvP world, getting crafted gear as a starting point is an expensive proposition while PvP crafted gear is available for much more reasonable cost.
This means that a PvE player who wants to try PvP can buy items for a decent starting point much easier than a PvP player who wants to try PvE.
Yet all the tools are in place to help hte PvE world without equivalent tools for the PvP world.
Any reason for this imbalance?
A constructive criticism idea that could come instead of the proposed gear changes:
Have only one type of gear in the game, for PvP AND PvE.
Have the PLAYERS responsible for the way they use the gear (maybe give the PLAYERS the PvP stats instead of to the gear, and these stats can be "leveled" to upgrade) and have the skills/spells/abilities act differently between PvE and PvP when needed.
Before any "too difficult" or "impossible" please note that some items already act this way.
For example - isn't a Warrior's Collossus Smash already different in PvE and in PvP?
Stilhelm Mar 7th 2012 5:59PM
Battlegrounds should also require a role check, so reasonably balanced teams can be generated. For example, if you have 1 healer and the other side has 4 healers in a Battle for Gilneas, the 4-healer team has to really suck badly to lose, since they can put 2 healers at each base for very strong defense.
Boobah Mar 7th 2012 6:12PM
The main difference? You still earn some rewards in entry-level PvP even if you lose. If you can't even get to the boss in a dungeon, much less defeat him, you get nothing. Except a repair bill.
Keep in mind, unlike at the beginning of Cata, we won't have level-cap regulars, so all you'll have to do is finish questing in the last zone (or more likely a little less) to qualify for the 90 heroics. Or, alternately, get yourself a PvP starter set, although that's less likely if you want to jump straight into tanking.
fatherland Mar 7th 2012 6:21PM
"A constructive criticism idea that could come instead of the proposed gear changes:
Have only one type of gear in the game, for PvP AND PvE.
Have the PLAYERS responsible for the way they use the gear (maybe give the PLAYERS the PvP stats instead of to the gear, and these stats can be "leveled" to upgrade) and have the skills/spells/abilities act differently between PvE and PvP when needed.
Before any "too difficult" or "impossible" please note that some items already act this way."
This is sort of the way the new stats work, but you still have to pvp and pve to get the sets. The crossover of all the stats BUT the pvp ones help lower the barrier to entry. Basically by having a gear set that is one "tier" of item level behind, you are in effect withholding the damage / healing and defense contributions of those items for actual pvp situations. If Blizz said, your gear will be x effective in PVE situations and x+10% effective in PVP situations, everyone would get the idea.
As far as PVE goes, if you were going pug a Deathwing in full T12 gear, I don't think you'd get too much flack. With the new system, that's basically what you have.
Revynn Mar 7th 2012 6:23PM
- "Have the PLAYERS responsible for the way they use the gear"
. . . . You're kidding, right? Like the way players were to "responsibly" roll only on what they could actually use as an upgrade in LFR?
The Honor System doesnt work in Azeroth. Asking the WoW playerbase to be responsible about anything is like prison guards leaving the gates open while they go out for coffee and asking the inmates to just hang out until they get back.
xenothaulus Mar 7th 2012 6:15PM
After getting my 5th alt to 85, I was very glad I was able to quickly make and buy some pvp gear to get her into the "real" heroics (4.3 DS dungeons). I don't want to have to be running the same crap on my monk for what feels like the thousandth time just to trickle out some points so i can gradually get to the current content.
To fix this, why not make JP and VP account bound, and increase or remove the cap, but set a cap on how much you can spend on one character per week? That way I could run current stuff with my well geared characters and get points to gear out my fresh 90, rather than run her through the same crap I've been doing for months on my main(s).
Boobah Mar 7th 2012 6:19PM
The devs have addressed this issue time and again; it has been their view that you need to earn end game gear with the character who wants that gear. (Which doesn't mean that they'll never change their mind.) After all, if you don't want to play that character, they obviously don't need gear anyway.
We already get pushed to the beginning of the current tier by way of the VP/honor vendors. And most tiers have a few slots that are BoE, too.
Lipstick Mar 7th 2012 7:27PM
The trouble with that system is that it a) it gives unfair advantage to those with other max level characters and punishes those who don't have an army of alts to help them farm VP/JP by creating unequal speeds at which people's main's gear out and b) I think it's a mistake to consider the new heroics "the real" heroics, since all heroics currently give the same amount of VP... and dev's spent a lot of development time on the original heroics, so acting as if they don't count is kind of insulting to the dev's hard work and time, and only INCREASES burn out when you force/limit yourself to 3 dungeons, instead of 13 or whatever the number is when you include them all.
The trouble with heroics objectively is that after the initial half of an expac, blues cease to be an upgrade to players, or they are upgrades for such a short window of time. I think that if they created items which scale up similar to how BOA gear scales with level, only design it to scale with patches that they would overall create longevity to their dungeons.
Wonk Mar 7th 2012 6:45PM
I like this idea, I see way too many players running bots or hiding in BG's, they should not be rewarded with gear that allows them access to content that requires PVE gear.
A bot or a hiding cheat does not gain anything by receiving gear that only serves to allow fighting other players.
lopsided Mar 7th 2012 7:05PM
JUST GET RID OF ILVL ON PVP GEAR . THEN YOU CANT USE IT TO GET INTO DUNGEONS. you dont need ilvl to get into battlegrounds or arenas so why even have an ilvl on pvp gear
Amanda A. Mar 8th 2012 11:54AM
Because PvP gear still has stats. And, in Mists, an item level 475 PvP piece will be just as good as a 475 PvE piece. (PvE pieces will have higher item levels in the same tier; you'll have a choice between a 475 PvP and a 495 PvE.)
Basically, if you make them 0, it's possible that someone who's overgeared for any 5-man PvE situation-- say, a healer whose only armor is a 403 Cataclysmic set--can't even queue for a non-heroic random dungeon.
Snuzzle Mar 8th 2012 3:40PM
You can't "get rid" of ilvl on pvp gear. Ilvl is what the game uses to determine how many of what stats to put on the gear. You can't remove the ilvl or you remove the stats.
Lipstick Mar 7th 2012 7:18PM
I think this is a good change. Naturally it wont be a perfect system, but it will equalize the "climb" as it were towards obtaining pvp gear as a primarily PVE player out of the gate, and will reduce problems in the PVE realm when people use PVP to artificially boost themselves into dungeons they're not quite ready to contribute to meaningfully. While still allowing for those who do pvp mostly to be able to join raids from time to time without holding the group collectively back.
In all honesty I think people are freaking out over nothing, as to me this sounds like you will still want pve gear for pve and pvp gear for pvp .. the same as it is now. It will just help players bridge that initial pvp gap where they have zero pvp gear and are just sitting ducks waiting to be picked off when they start off in battle grounds or arenas with their friends. If the gap/transition is a little easier on entry players, it sounds to me as if it will entice more players to give pvp a shot. Or at least give players a chance at enjoying pvp when they first give it a go.
By the same token, players with top level pvp gear will still be able to do decent damage / healing when they first start off in raids and are building up an equivalent pve set. It just wont allow people to cheat the dungeon queue system in pvp gear any more.
I think this will be a good thing.
Lachdanan Mar 7th 2012 9:02PM
That's all well and good in BGs, but in arena the problem isn't there: healers are overpowered (if two DPS can't kill one DPS who's being healed in 2v2, it's not balanced right, especially considering that they have infinite mana again) and some classes/combos are more powerful than others, as always (although that's also part of the whole rock-paper-scissors aspect of PvP, so it's also the luck of the draw).
Frith Mar 7th 2012 9:57PM
So basically the pvp gear is lower ilvl than the pve gear BUT the "PvP stats" don't count for it's item stat budget. So let's say a PvE piece with an ilvl of 500 has 1,500 strength, 1,500 stamina, 750 Crit and 750 Haste will see it's PvP counter part with a lower ilvl of say 490, and have 1,350 strength, 1,350 stamina, 600 Crit and 600 Haste AND the "PvP Power and Defense" stats which do absolutely nothing for pve, but at least doesn't take away stat budget from the piece of gear. (Unlike the previous model where resilience is accounted for the stat budgeting of a piece of pvp gear making it THAT much less effective for PvE). Quite interesting actually, especially if they get the numbers just right. :)
Utakata Mar 8th 2012 12:23AM
"Blizzard is making this change for many reasons, one of which is to stop player abuse of PvP gear's item level to inflate their scores to enter dungeons via the Dungeon and Raid Finders earlier than they should."
I strongly suspect this paternalistic attitudes towards its players has been one of the contributing factors of to the subscription bleed. Most players do not like to be treated as unruley children...since I suspect the largest majority are adults. It doesn't appear they've learned this lesson from Cataclysm.
Further more, it doesn't help the fact during they've patched blue PvP items with higher iLevels than many Cata epics. Thus it should be conversely understood that if you give players items they can "abuse", then they'll abuse it..especially in a competative environment. Perhaps not giving it to them in the first place would of been better...instead of blaming players for poor design choices, which is not exactly great PR for the game either. Just saying.