One gear set for PvE and PvP in Mists of Pandaria?

EDIT: I want to make it clear that this is purely hypothetical, and imagined! Blizzard aren't doing this. I'm wondering what's stopping them.
Now, I understand that back in the halcyon days before The Burning Crusade, resilience didn't exist in its current form. Please note, however, that this isn't meant to be a discussion on that period of WoW. So what would be the positive and negative aspects of such a system? One area where I see a bit of a struggle emerging is as follows: How do you get this gear? How does it scale? Where does the best gear come from?
If I were a dev (with or without my coffee), I'd have to say that one's a tricky one. I suppose you could let people earn points from both PvE and PvP and have them spend those points, similar to valor or conquest now, except both are taken to the same vendor. You could still have lower tiers of gear available for honor or justice equivalents that are easier to reach.
But no drops in instances, just points? Boring! Would you need to add drops into PvP somehow, too, or raiders get the best gear faster ... or is the current system OK? Do PvP ilevels need to replicate PvE ones, or is scaling good?
Would you change how people earn those high-end points on the PvP side? The conquest point cap is higher than the valor one, but I would imagine that fewer people reach it per week. And looking at heroic raiding gear, you'd need an equivalent for PvP. 2,200+ rating gear? I would hazard a guess that even fewer players see 2,200+ rating than see heroic raids.
It's important to me that a hypothetical single gear set system doesn't mean PvE or PvP players have to do the other gameplay style in order to get the best gear for their preferred discipline. So when new raid tiers came in, PvP gear would have to be upgraded accordingly.
Leaving that aside, though, what would be the problems when it came to actually using the gear? Well, procs, perhaps. Looking at Dragonwrath, Tarecgosa's Rest's proc as an example, it's great in PvE, really comparable to the difficult task of assembling the weapon, and what's more, it's fun. In PvP, it's troublesome, just like Vial of Shadows was pre-nerf. Blizzard has tried to move away from very high-burst damage in PvP, and I think it's appreciated. But those facts don't mean that a single gear set is impossible, just that cool procs may have to be left out.I think the biggest problem of a single gear set could be the feeling of unfairness. Would hardcore PvP players feel cheated if a hardcore PvE player rocked up and facerolled them wearing raid-acquired gear? Would hardcore PvE players feel cheated if a hardcore PvP player came and blew them all off the DPS charts? Would people constantly feel that the "other side" had it better?
Am I exhibiting a falsely divided view? Ignoring the above, would a single gear set mean a focus purely on a player's skill and not on the "right" gear? Would this help to iron out elitism from one side or the other? Would it bring world PvP back to the fore?
Finally, would only having to grind one gear set for both disciplines remove a necessary hurdle to gameplay duration? I think this may be the crux of the issue.
Filed under: PvP, Blood Sport (Arena PvP)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Medivhal Mar 7th 2012 3:13PM
I think those feelings of animosity would exist if Blizz rolled out something like this. I like the PvE community would have the most to say, as PvPers would queue up for LFR groups with the intent of getting easy tokens to turn into PvP gear instead of actually PvPing.
Noyou Mar 7th 2012 3:27PM
@Olivia
From your "lips" to God's ears. One set of gear for both would make me sooooo happy. Me and my team of alts.
omedon666 Mar 7th 2012 3:39PM
Totally doable, so long as you aren't aiming at "THE most current" PVE undertakings at any given time.
(see my post below ;) )
jtrack3d Mar 7th 2012 5:03PM
People will almost always take the path of least resistance -- the easiest way.
Unless both paths are equally time consuming, the easier path will become the default and everyone will eventually abandon the other path.
The new 5-man -> LFR for VP is a perfect example. We used to pound 5-man heroics for VP. Now, we hit two short LFR's and weekly raid and NEVER touch 5-mans. Some might, but I imagine not near as many as used to do this.
So, the question is, which path will die out or do they want to die out, if they chose to make this change.
Snuzzle Mar 8th 2012 6:18AM
And, of course, the hardcorest of the hardcore with feel "forced" to do both (because even if you spend both sets of points separately, you can still, say, get bracers with PvP points this week and boots with your PvE points the same week). Then of course the slightly less hardcore will feel forced to do the same to stay competitive. Until it becomes the norm to have to farm both sets of points every week for everyone, just like it was the norm in Wrath to do 10 and 25 raids each week (including two VOAs as well as your two TOCs or ICCs) for maximum loot and points).
That isn't something they want to return to, and I can't say I blame them. And history bears us out that if you make something like that an option, it WILL become "mandatory" to stay competitive.
TimR Mar 7th 2012 3:27PM
I'm a bit confused. Everything I've read speaks to them shrinking the gulf between PVE and PVP gear, but I don't see where this "one set" idea is coming from. Each set will still edge the other in it's respective field. You'll still acquire PVP gear from PVP and PVE gear from Dungeons and Raids.
Personally, I used to PVP quite a bit when I could realistically battle in my PVE gear. Now that I can't, I never do. I just don't have the time or desire to grind out another set of gear, and don't enjoy getting trounced in PVE gear.
Olivia Grace Mar 7th 2012 3:38PM
For clarity TimR, this is not news, or even where I think Mists will be heading. It's just an interesting topic, which I thought merited discussion.
Hope that clears it up! They've been very clear that this isn't what's coming in Mists.
Olivia
TimR Mar 7th 2012 3:49PM
Ah, I see.
Personally I like the direction they seem to be taking things. As I said above, I got very frustrated with the barrier to entry with PVP as it stands right now, and I think the new system coming in Mists sounds promising.
I do think there is value in having a bit of difference in gear, though. I want to be viable at PVP in my PVE gear, but I don't expect to be the best. Someone that solely PVP's should be rewarded with great PVP gear, and beat me in PVE gear, all other things being equal.
moobinator Mar 7th 2012 3:28PM
I always felt that PvP anc PvE shoul dbe kept seperate in all ways, but that's not entirely possible. But one thing they could look at is make the items for PvE more viable for PvE and vice versa, Say gear obtained in PvE is used in PvP, the strip the bonuses from the item or any special Proc related to something that should be usefull in PvE, it kind of works this way already with resiliance which is a worthless stat in PvE. But then you can have PvP items that have special procs or stats that are great in PvP but too overpowered in PvE (not sure what it could be), and make them worthless in PvE.
They aleady make skills and some items restricted or changed for PvP, so why not take it to the next step and make Armor and weapons specific to the environment they shoul dbe used in.
omedon666 Mar 7th 2012 3:38PM
The way I understand it, on each relative "tier/season" of access, the way we always guage availability, strength, and "freshness" of gear, putting the two types of gear next to each other would result in the PVP stuff having a lower ilvl, but then overshooting the PVP value of the PVE side with the sheer relative PVP weight of resilience.
So, as long as you're not thinking of holycrap raiding, you *could* just PVP gear, but realize that making ilvl requirements for later content might take longer... which is where the PVE value of said PVP gear comes in: you could pursue drops and PVE points to bring up the PVE side of things in, say, "one step down" from your goal.
Basically it will work much the same, only the age old "my PVP gear, even taking away the ilvl weight applied to resilience, is still better than your PVE gear" argument will actually be quantified as true or false.
Resilience goes away as ilvl padding for automated group assembly in PVE, which is the #1 positive here.
(cutaia) Mar 7th 2012 4:54PM
"Resilience goes away as ilvl padding for automated group assembly in PVE, which is the #1 positive here."
Absolutely. I tend to just mentally remove 13 iLevels from each PvP piece to get some kind of better idea of what the gear is actually equaling in PvE stat value, but that gets to be a lot of math when looking at someone with a big mix of pieces.
It'll be nice to know, "Oh, this raider has all 510 pieces. This PvPer has all 500 pieces. This raider has mostly 510s and a few 500s," and instantly understand the real value of each set in a PvP setting.
jealouspirate Mar 7th 2012 3:39PM
Remove PvP gear/stats.
Whenever you zone into an arena or BG your stats are automatically set at a level predetermined by Blizzard, intended to put everyone on an equal footing. Your gear will have no influence whatsoever. There are never any power level differences between players in structured PvP.
Let what little world PvP is left just be chaotic.
My ideal situation, The End.
(P.S. For those interested, this is what Guild Wars 2 is doing)
Caliea Mar 7th 2012 3:59PM
Pirate,
Not sure this works. Doesn't it take away some of the reasons for PvPing?
Look at it from a PvE perspective first: when you beat a boss in PvE, half the fun (agony?) is seeing what loot drops. If your gear is equalized upon entering an area, what would be the fun of loot?
Now apply it to PvP: I've recently started really worshipping the PvP Gods, and chasing that elusive 'perfect' PvP set. I'm enjoying accomplishing my personal goals as I slowly upgrade my gear from Vicious (crafted) to Ruthless (honor) and then to Cataclysmic (Conquest) gear. I'm having fun honing my skill in arenas and BGs, but the lure of ever better gear is part of the fun too. Take that away, and you take away a lot of the feeling of tangible reward that comes from playing PvP. (I'm pretending my pretty pixels are tangible.)
I'm definitely a PvP newcomer, and I don't have a solution to the gear/cross-contamination issue, but just stripping any gear quality issues from PvP doesn't' seem to be the solution.
~Caliea
jealouspirate Mar 7th 2012 4:13PM
@Caliea
Well, I'm of the opinion that gameplay should be done because it's inherently enjoyable, not because of a search for rewards. The "reason" for PvPing, in my mind, should be because you enjoy the act of PvPing. You enjoy the taste of victory, of a killing blow, of strategy, of practicing your skills and seeing progress in your abilities.
Though if people truly need some gear to chase after, transmog provides a great alternative here. Blizzard could keep designing cool "PvP sets" each season, but make them cosmetic rewards used for transmogging.
Power disparity just causes so many problems. I would love to come back to the game and do Battlegrounds, but my main's average ilevel is something like 346. In order to even be on a level playing field I'd have to suffer through hours of grinding honor against people who can steamroll me because of stats alone. How is that fun?
jealouspirate Mar 7th 2012 4:11PM
@Caliea
Well, I'm of the opinion that gameplay should be done because it's inherently enjoyable, not because of a search for rewards. The "reason" for PvPing, in my mind, should be because you enjoy the act of PvPing. You enjoy the taste of victory, of a killing blow, of strategy, of practicing your skills and seeing progress in your abilities.
Though if people truly need some gear to chase after, transmog provides a great alternative here. Blizzard could keep designing cool "PvP sets" each season, but make them cosmetic rewards used for transmogging.
Power disparity just causes so many problems. I would love to come back to the game and do Battlegrounds, but my main's average ilevel is something like 346. In order to even be on a level playing field I'd have to suffer through hours of grinding honor against people who can steamroll me because of stats alone. How is that fun?
Caliea Mar 7th 2012 4:36PM
@ Pirate
It IS inherently enjoyable to me. That's why I play WoW at all. But it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that we don't also enjoy the rewards that come along with the gameplay.
Why did I strive to get PacMan to eat the fruit? Why did I bash Mario's head against every coin block I could? Why do I do achievements, collect pets, or run old instances to get 'mogging gear? Because I'm after some reward that is in addition to the pure enjoyment of playing the game for the stated 'goal'.
Do I like killing Alliance, or keeping them from killing me? Absolutely! But I also enjoy pondering how to spend my current stash of Conquest points to get better gear. It's all part of the experience for me.
Khirsah Mar 7th 2012 5:27PM
@ pirate...
You say that people should play for enjoyment of the game, not rewards. They should play because they love the taste of victory, of a killing blow, of strategy, of practicing skills and seeing progress in their abilities.
But of course, those things are rewards, too. Your last paragraph is that you don't pvp anymore because your gear is too low and you'll get steamrolled. What about just playing for the enjoyment of the game? If you were playing just for enjoyment, then outcome should not matter. The reward of victory may be enough for you, but you still require a reward of some kind to make the game enjoyable.
For me, I enjoy KB's as much anyone. I am the guy still trying to run flags or defend bases long after the rest of the team has said "just let them win and get it over with." Let them win? NEVER!!! Victory must be earned, not given.
But I also like new gear. Gotta go with Caliea on this one.
Schadenfreude Mar 7th 2012 9:20PM
This is what I want as well-- no gear, just skill. and a hell of a lot easier to just jump in and learn. The rewards could be transmog pieces, pets, mounts, tabards, etc.
Snuzzle Mar 8th 2012 7:53AM
@Khirsah
Losing isn't fun for anyone, when you don't stand a chance in the world. Sure, a fair loss is fine if you're mature about it. Good game, well played, etc. But when you zone into a BG in starter PVP blues from the AH, you get flattened. There's no hope of winning. No chance of anything but a firm and thorough trouncing.
It's like starting world 1 level 1 of Mario and a flood of goombahs appears. You can't possibly jump them all. So you lose, within the first three seconds. That's no fun.
Oh sure, you get a couple points for each loss, and eventually you can work up to where you can remove some of the goombahs to give you a chance to jump them all (let's pretend you can spend "points" to remove enemies) but to get there you have to get flattened over and over and over. It's not something a lot of people want to go through.
The two solutions to this are to make PVE gear semi-viable in PVP settings, or to just equalize gear across the board in PVP. I think they should do the latter, personally. In non-rated PVP anyway (leaved ranked BGs and Arena unequalized for those who like the gear grind... since those teams will have gear requirements anyway). Then you can actually work up the points to get better PVP gear for ranked matches without feeling like a water balloon.
If you want, only apply it at level 90 so that lower levels can still twink if they enjoy it. Voila. Everyone is happy.
SR Mar 8th 2012 9:27AM
If you're merely PVPing for the sake of gear, you're either killing enemy players for the wrong reason or the system is inherently flawed in making you seek out gear before everything else.
Disregarding gear as a part of reward, hardcore PVPers have always enjoyed exclusive rewards for their exceptional performance through mounts and titles, just like PVE. While PVE might be a numbers game, PVP should definitely be a skill game; You don't get extra defense by getting armor permutations in Halo Reach, or extra killing power from custom paint jobs on your gun in CoD, or purchasing custom skins in LoL. They represent the more successful PVP games (in my opinion), and there's very little advantage gained through "gearing" or making additional purchases.