Breakfast Topic: Is DKP starting to become obsolete?
by Allison Robert 
Mar 10th 2012 at 8:00AM
I trawled through the guild recruitment forums to see if this was actually part of a wider trend, but don't know what to think. The 25-man raiding guilds are the most likely to say they use a DKP system or variant; 10-man raiding guilds nearly all use loot councils, at least from my (admittedly brief) survey of the current advertisements.
Is this also happening on your realms, or have I gotten this wrong? We all know that every DKP system has its issues and that administrating them is one of the larger headaches for guild leaders. 10-man raiding is also more popular than 25-man raiding right now, and it probably doesn't make sense for a guild to obsessively track DKP for a 10-man where most players probably aren't rolling on the same stuff. Is DKP dying, or is it just a sign of the popularity of the 10-man model?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Spellotape Mar 10th 2012 8:10AM
If you take a closer look at the recruitment forums you'll find more 25-mans do use a dkp-variant or some sort of non-loot council way in which to distribute items - this isn't how 25-mans universally operate, but the last time I was guild-hunting the majority of 25-man progression guilds seemed to have dkp (or something similar).
I don't see people mentioning their loot system in trade chat advertisements, either, but it doesn't really seem like the kind of thing that gets mentioned in trade chat advertisements - somehow number of bank tabs and sick tabards are more relevant for that brief (albeit repeatable) spam.
At a glance all I want to know about a guild posting in trade is time, days, and raid size - if I'm interested I'll inquire about their loot system when I speak to their recruiter.
Vaydren Mar 10th 2012 8:22AM
Personally I think it has more to do with the preference of 10-man raiding. You don't really need a formal loot system for a 10-man because most gear either only goes to one person (for main spec, that is) or is DE'd. It's only in 25-man that you start to need a legit loot system.
That said, I'm not a fan of pure DKP (I do like EPGP however) because it takes into account nothing except how much DKP you have. From the few times I've been in DKP guilds, there wasn't even a MS/OS concept it was "Bid the most DKP? You got it" and nobody cared if someone took an OS upgrade from someone elses MS just because they had more DKP.
What I would really like as a loot system would be something similar to DKP (some kind of "currency" that you earn and bid) but where it wasn't cut and dried like an auction (highest bidder wins) and the item was also up to debate as to which of the highest bidders would benefit the team the most to receive it. IMO that would also make it easier to gear new members as in a DKP system new recruits often get royally screwed and they are typically the ones who need the upgrades the most.
Pyromelter Mar 10th 2012 3:51PM
Dkp with decay imo is the best system like that. I don't like epgp because it really can hinder one raider when they get a high amount of gp. Dkp is also simpler, much easier to understand, and with smaller, easier numbers to comprehend.
Regarding ms/os, the one guild I was in that used straight
dkp, it was for ms only. Anyone going for os it would be a straight /roll. A moonkin for example claiming ms on a feral staff would be allowed to spend dkp.
II completely agree with your point on 10man raiding though. You really don't need much if any kind of loot system there.
Lissanna Mar 10th 2012 8:22AM
Loot council & "free rolls" are a lot less fair in 25-mans (where you could still have 5 or even 10 people wanting the same ring/necklace/trinket). Loot in general is a lot harder to manage in 25-mans. So, using some sort of point system in 25's helps ensure more fairness and less drama.
In 10-mans, you won't have as much competition for each item compared to 25's, so loot council or free-rolls work fine for the smaller raid size (where loot disputes may be between 2 or 3 people).
Atanae Mar 10th 2012 9:16AM
I was never a fan of Loot Council, as it is most prone to favoritism. We have a DKP back-up plan in case we need it for our 10-man. These days, we use it mostly as a "threat": "don't make me break out DKP"
If I did have to go to a group that used a more formal loot distribution, I would not join a Loot Council team.
AFA loot distribution - 10-mans can get pretty intense. You get a higher gear drop ratio in 25-mans than in 10-mans and I don't think I've ever seen duplicate drops in 10-mans (which can happen in 25-mans), so the loot's "dearer." If you lose the roll for that cloth shoulder, you may not see it again for another month if the RNG gods are not kind.
In terms of 25-man v. 10-man, you have to to think of it as wine versus Port. You may get more from a bottle of wine, but what you do get from a bottle of Port is the same alcohol, just more concentrated. ;)
DrGerm Mar 10th 2012 8:29AM
People still use DKP?
mazca13 Mar 10th 2012 8:32AM
We still use Suicide Kings in our 10-man. Yes, in many cases it's not necessary because there's only one person after an item, but it's an ideal way of balancing out luck when you have a few people after similar items. We've never been a fan of loot councils simply because of our officers' general dislike for the pressure of it - we already have difficulty being diplomatic when it comes to benching people.
alapin Mar 10th 2012 8:38AM
I am currently in a ten man raid guild, and the times I have raided with them or others of the same size, I have seen simply the MS/OS/DE roll rule enforced and a cap on token drops for given armor slots. I personally have never come across a DKP guild type loot system in any raid I have done, so I can't say how it works in either raid size.
Personally, I see an even lesser need now to set up a loot master type enforcement with the new need+ roll setting (albiet I am unsure if it can be set for raid groups outside of the LFR system as I rarely form raids myself). In the instance that need+ can be used in normal raiding scenarios, it would completely cut out the middle man and a dkp type enforcement module for armor tokens/trinkets/weapons/misc pieces of armor, and would leave all the rolls up to the system. While I would hope people would be honest in their Needing/Greeding/etc, it may not always be possible when it comes to people who don't normally raid with you and are just filling in. On the brighter side, most players in an organized raid of 10-25 people know what items they are meant to use and what they are not (as in mages/locks know to avoid spirit cloth/gear, plate dps know to steer clear of agility based weaponry, and so on) so there would be less confusion in terms of need rolling on things (unlike in the LFR where people needed everything they could get their grubby fingers on). In the event of a bad roll (such as a lock going for spirit gear), the raid leader can easily give them a nudge and tell them to give it to the priest (if cloth armor or wand) or to a healer/caster hybrid that can use spirit effectively.
Michael Mar 10th 2012 10:12PM
Need+ is LFR only, and isn't a usuable loot system in player-made raids.
vay Mar 10th 2012 11:38AM
I've raided 25-man for the last two years, so I can't speak for 10-mans - comments about loot council being more viable in 10s make sense.
But for my guild, I've assumed it's a given that you'll use a DKP system of some sort unless you are seriously hardcore. I wouldn't think to advertise we have one.
We're semi-hardcore, and more about progress than epics (or at least, that's the theory. ;-) ). The most common questions from people enquiring about my guild are, what's your progress, what nights do you raid, and what classes are you recruiting. So I assume those things matter much more than the loot system we use.
Jem Mar 10th 2012 8:48AM
We use a loot system, we started Cata as a 25man and have been forced into 10man due to lack of numbers. That said, we have 17+ people still who want to raid, so we find a loot system is still useful. As an officer I'd hate to have to be invovled in loot council decisions, it's bad enough having to work out who misses out each night.
If we were running a set team for 10mans, I'm not sure I would see a loot system as being necessary, but I think it would depend on personalities. I still get people complaining to me that X person has more loot than them, and Y person doesn't really deserve it etc. If people weren't so emotionally invested in loot and stopped viewing RNG as some kind of personal slight (tier token RNG is the bane of my life right now), it would be much simpler.
Glaras Mar 10th 2012 8:52AM
We're still using EPGP in our 10's. Not everyone's happy with it, but not one can suggest anything else that properly rewards effort as opposed to just being lucky.
Atanae Mar 10th 2012 9:07AM
I count myself extremely fortunate. My 10-man team uses ML Need/Greed rolls with the caveat that everyone gets ONE upgrade per run UNLESS no one can use the gear. However, my raiders are more likely to offer to pass to someone who needs the gear.
Around this time last year, my old raid team required DKP because of complaints about who got gear and how much.
HappyTreeDance Mar 10th 2012 11:16AM
This is pretty much what my guild (10 man raiding) does as well. We roll 100 for main spec and 50 for offspec. If you've already gotten an upgrade for the night, you roll 99 (or 49), and so on down. This makes sure that loot is being distributed fairly evenly for each reset.
Things like essences of destruction, we hold off on having rolls until we have four of them rather than rolling for them one at a time. These are free rolls, regardless if a person has gotten a regular upgrade that week.
We also encourage our raiders not to be jerks, and people will often pass on upgrades for a huge variety of reasons. My healing partner had a bad run of luck where none of her gear dropped for weeks, so when a healing ring dropped, I passed on it so she could have the upgrade. Our mage has turned down an upgrade on shoulders because they were a bigger upgrade for someone else. During Firelands, one of our hunters refused to take the flaming kitty staff so that I could have it -FOR MY OFFSPEC- because he thought it was so cool that I could turn into a flaming kitty with it. We call them karma passes, and I find that stuff like that is even better for raid morale than taking down a boss.
It's not a perfect system, obviously, and occasionally there will still be some frustration over loot, but we've found this is the one that works best for us.
Metric Mar 10th 2012 4:15PM
@ HappyTreeDance--These "Karma" passes happen all the time with my 10 man team. We run with 2 shadow priests, a healing priest, prot pally and a holy pally so they have to help each other gear wise....1/2 the raid competing for the same tokens. We also run with 2 rogues and a resto druid who compete for tokens. The prot warrior and resto shammy have it good gear wise.
Scunosi Mar 10th 2012 5:58PM
Yeah that's basically how my old guild ran, too. It helps when you only really do 10-mans so you don't have to worry about as much competition for loot in the first place, and also the tighter feeling of friendship and camaraderie. I guess it kind of counts as a loot council as well though as we did sometimes discuss at least who a piece would be better for, though it was usually those competing for it that were just trying to figure out who'd benefit more from it. But my buds were awesome like that.
I never really cared for the DKP system as it just seemed like so much out-of-game work for something that should've been fun. Sure, most people play for loot, but it should really be a means to an end, not your final goal. Gear will always be replaced anyway, but your experiences should be what you really stick around for.
Of course, I could see it being something of a necessity for larger-scale raiding like in 25-mans, and especially in something as huge as 40-mans. Watching half the raid roll for something and then start bickering about it is probably way more of a hassle than just tallying up the points and passing stuff out. And with the general transition to 10-mans you can kind of see why you'd be seeing less of it.
Matthew Mar 10th 2012 9:13AM
In our set 10-man raid team the rule is similar to Atanae's above.
In our 25-man raid team we're using EPGP.
I do believe it's the massive reduction in 25-man raiding that's caused this lack you speak of though.
Scott Mar 10th 2012 9:42AM
I honestly don't think DKP will ever become truly obsolete. Since 2004, I've heard every argument for other loot systems and against DKP, but I still keep coming back to it as my favorite.
The beauty of DKP is that it rewards a guild's long term players. Consistency, longevity, and retention are the name of the game, especially for 25 man guilds. You won't be killing HM bosses if leadership is constantly trying to fill holes in the roster. Keep the same 25 or so people around for a year? You'll make progress.
This isn't anecdotal either. I've been in my raiding guild for over four years, and they've existed for seven. We've used DKP since the very beginning and over every single expansion cycle we're top 3 on the server.
Consistency, longevity, and retention = results.
joshbuddha Mar 10th 2012 9:51AM
my guild still runs 25s and are working on spine heroic atm. While 25s are becoming less popular it still feels way more like real raiding than 10 man. In our alt run we almost laughed at how easy some fights are in 10 heroic compared to 25, I mean Ultraxion and Yorsahj were jokes even before the nerf/buff whatever you want to call it was implemented.
razion Mar 10th 2012 9:56AM
I think the general drop in the usage of DKP-like systems might have more to do with the amount of bosses in a given raid tier than the size of your given raid.
I've noticed through expansions that as I've migrated around guilds, that during each consecutive tier I've been in, the size of the raid and the amount of loot that was available was heavily if not directly tied to how often we used a DKP-like system.
Here are some personal examples: around Naxx, my guild used a DKP system. But then after we were around a 50% clear, the system was dropped, and only picked up again when we got into Ulduar, which of course didn't last long (not because of our progress mind you, but because of how quickly it was usurped by ToC). We then dropped it in ToC (which had very few bosses), and used it again when ICC came out.
In Cataclysm, it was used only around BWD, until Firelands was released, where we used it until we got to Staghelm. When Dragonsoul came about, it was used about until we breached Spine.
While of course not all guilds are going to be the same, I do think there is a legitimate connection between the amount of available loot in a given run and whether a guild will use a DKP-system. And because we have had fairly decent-sized raids in Cataclysm as opposed to a lot of smaller, separate raids (like we tended to have in Wrath) with more gear available to more people, I think the need for a DKP system is mitigated by the amount of upgrades a given raid is receiving than maybe a lot of people are used to, which means the need for a DKP system is also lessened.
My two copper on the matter.