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3-12-2012 @ 8:40PM
General question, I'm a wrath baby, ans as long as I've been in the holy paladins have just been these huge bombing healers. I can't ever remember a time when a priest could just flat out out-hps a paladin. So why not try to make holy a bombing crazy high hps healer, with disc a combo healer/shielder sort of like a resto shammy but with more shielding? (Also forgive me if that was a bad comparison, I don't heal, but it just seems like priests just haven't had their turn at the top of the hps meter in like forever)
3-12-2012 @ 9:22PM
Hiya! I'm a firm believer in: you Can't compare HPS across specs/classes. Did you know a Holy Pally heals a chosen target every time they heal someone else? And did you know that that target can be themselves? (I did not until I rolled one). So basically, its like casting binding heal each time. How the heck can you compare to that? Any holy pallies above level 52 (mine) care to comment if I'm wrong? Please advise.In regards to your idea - that's a good one. I look foward to see what the devs come up with!
3-12-2012 @ 10:00PM
@Matthew - Now that you mention it, I've started seeing all kinds of signs that Priests are the breeding grounds for other class's healing spells. It's almost like we get the basic version, and then they evolve and turn into something else.Which, as I think further, makes Monks' statue-centric healing sound a lot like the smart-healing version of Lightwell...
3-12-2012 @ 11:51PM
Well matthew, i'd like agree with you, but then I remember dawn talking about priests getting sat in ds heroic modes in the comments of the previous spiritual guidance. There has to be some numerical way to see which class is performing better, otherwise why stack holy paladins?I think it would just be cool for priests to have a minute where it's like "oh crap we need some holy priests on this fight" but it never seems to work that way. (Step 1: add fountain of light spell :) )
3-13-2012 @ 1:07AM
@HomeschoolThat's because Priests, or Clerics, or White Hats, White Mages, have always been the archetypal healer. Paladins are just a hybrid of Warriors and Priests. The Druid as a Healer has precedence too of course, but if you notice they play much differently than Priests and Paladins.
3-13-2012 @ 1:52AM
I'm gonna chime in here. First -- the post seemed to get side tracked.1- Wrath healing and Cata healing is very different. Even when comparing ICC to DS when mana is mostly a non-issue.2- Paladin have a much smaller toolkit of heals. They either notice someone took damage, target them, and cast a spell like Flash Heal or Greater Heal (Divine Light, in their case), or they work on AoE healing. AoE healing is targeting someone in the middle of a large pack of players who aren't topped off, and casting Holy Radiance on them. That's it. Holy Power and Beacon of Light make it slightly more complex, but they don't have abilities like Circle of Healing, Prayer of Mending, Prayer of Healing, a cooldown like Divine Hymn, or a HoT like Renew. They also lack the ability to drop a healing circle on the ground. 3-Then how do Paladins work like such powerhouses on the healing meters? Here is how:With such a small toolkit, they resort to either:A) Single target heal. orB) Use Holy Radiance. When Holy Radance is used properly and doesn't overheal, it does a TON of healing. It's very situational in that it requires a lot of people to need healing and to be nearby each other, but that's common in Dragon Soul. Thus, they do very well.NOTE: Holy Radiance heals EVERYONE nearby. There is no limit. ALL Priest spells have a limit to how many people they target, except the one heal that you plop on the ground (Holy only). Thus, a Priest has to cast more spells to heal as many people as a paladins one Holy Radiance. The reason paladins are topping the meters, thus, is that they can heal more in less time. They run out of mana very fast, but regen quickly as well. To compensate, the other healing classes need some slight buffs (especially shaman).Now, on to the tangent:"Now that you mention it, I've started seeing all kinds of signs that Priests are the breeding grounds for other class's healing spells. It's almost like we get the basic version, and then they evolve and turn into something else."This is true across all things. Both Feral cats and Rogues have gained abilities that were once unique to the other. Everything however is given a unique twist. Druids have Wild Growth, Priests have Circle of Healing. Both function the same way, but in a unique way to the class. No one class is the original though, everyone gets stuff from everyone else.
3-13-2012 @ 5:47AM
I may be misremembering, but the design of holy paladins in Wrath and the introduction of beacon swung the pendulum too far towards paladins being the 'go to' tank healer. I speak as someone who took up disc healing just before the Wrath tweaks that made disc more viable and as someone whose raid group rarely if ever had a holy paladin, and when we did, oddly the paladins didn't want to tank heal and sucked at it.One paladin could heal two tanks. No other class could do that. They were pretty much mandatory for some heroic modes (Deathbringer Saurfang I think was a 3 holy paladin set up). Blizzard ended up designing ICC around the concept that your tanks would be healed by holy paladins. Valithra (the green dragon you heal) was pretty much a show case of holy paladin strengths, including spiffy ways of glyphing for more throughput. If a holy paladin has no mana issues they can heal bomb with their biggest most expensive heals and beacon transferred that full amount in Wrath. As a disc priest, I was next to useless trying to heal up Val herself :) The design of Infest on the LK fight lent itself to shield spam by disc priests.In Cata, Blizzard tried to break down the niche roles and gave holy paladins a couple of AoE options they were sorely lacking, but the combination of spell design and raid encounter design is crucial to performance of any given healing class as a whole in each tier. My understanding is that resto shamans have suffered due to this. I still see a lot of raid encounter designs that would be simpler to heal if you had a holy paladin with beacon, but that could be personal bias given our lack of one. The redesign of Holy Radiance in 4.3 plus the design of a lot of the DS encounters lends itself well still to holy paladin healing. Because it isn't a capped target aoe, the stacking up on Ultra for example lends itself very well to holy paladin aoe. As a disc priest, I find the worst fights to aoe heal are the ones where random people take damage, as PoH is group based and is wasted to some extent if only a couple of people in said group need healing.For all that, as the healing lead, I have had all my healers tank and raid heal at differing points. I don't believe that X class can't heal a tank or can't heal raid. I think some are stronger at one or the other but are capable of doing both. Our resto shaman beats the pants off the holy paladin, so while I understand there are design issues around classes, I know that a bad player can still fail to make the most of the current "top' class and a superb player can make the current 'underpowered' class shine.
3-13-2012 @ 6:10AM
The priest class as a whole has always had a larger tool box than any other healer. So the idea that they pull from the priest class and then twist spells to fit the class that they're given to, isn't too far off the mark. One of the reason so many priests are unhappy about the split between holy/disc is that when you've had something for so long, it feels wrong to lose something, instead of just gaining something new. My only hope is that they're taking away, in order to give us something to replace it. So that holy and disc can finally not have such an incestuous relationship. To some degree balance has not been able to be preserved between the two because we were so co-dependent on one another. It's the same reason that cat and bear druids have suffered for so long being crammed into the same tree -- they couldn't give bears anything super cool if it was accessible to cats or vice versa. It is my hope that they are doing this for the betterment of both classes at once. Just right now it feels heart-breaking, like losing old familiar friends.
3-14-2012 @ 7:21AM
@ Pyro"There has to be some numerical way to see which class is performing better, otherwise why stack holy paladins?"I am not a hardcore raider, my progression is just 2/8 HC. But my understanding is that it really isn't about hps. Druids also do insane hps - but they get sat too.Druids and holy priests don't bring much utility. Paladins bring utility - i.e. raidwide defensive CDs (holy priests don't have one of those), and tank cooldowns (druids don't have one of those). Disc Priests bring barrier, but stacking disc priests is stupid because of of weakened soul.Hps or healing done is a somewhat useful metric, but it's much much less important for comparing healers than dps is for comparing dpsers. Most of the time the hardest bit of a fight for healers is handling the big damage spikes - throwing more healers or hps at a big damage spike is much less effective than using a single PW:B, or chaining Aura Masteries/Spirit Link Totems. Hps may now record absorbs but it doesn't measure damage prevented through CDs.
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