Encrypted Text: Shuriken Toss breaks all the rules

Raise your hand if you remember fighting against Shazzrah. I'm not talking about our recent bout with Shannox or even our old fights against Mother Shahraz. Shazzrah goes way back, to WoW's very first raid instance, Molten Core. Due to the frequent AoE explosions that Shazzrah unleashed, rogues couldn't engage him without being slaughtered immediately. While the rest of the raid fought the boss, I joined the other rogues in my group crushing Blindweed and making some food next to the Cooking Fire.
As a melee class, our biggest weakness for years has been that we can only deal damage to nearby targets. It's limited our ability to swap targets effectively, our ability to avoid point-blank AoE attacks, and our ability to attack any target that's not on the ground. Rogues, along with other melee classes, have actually been benched because of these limitations. These shackles and restrictions have bound our class since its inception.
Shuriken Toss has the chance to change all that. The new level 90 rogue talent slated for Mists of Pandaria might redefine what it means to play a rogue.

I'm not complaining. Imagine this image with me: a rogue standing resolute, alternating hands deftly producing instruments of pain from hidden pouches, subsequently launching these deadly shuriken at his unsuspecting target. A flurry of steel and glimmers of reflections from the blades are all his opponent sees before being vanquished.
Our current toolbox doesn't work
We've had Throw and Deadly Throw for years, but neither has seen regular use. I think I tossed a couple of Deadly Throws toward Atramedes in Cataclysm, but that's about it. Wait, I did actually use Throw during Morchok's Black Blood phases, before I realized that between Cloak of Shadows and a bribe to my raid's healers, I could just stay in melee range instead.
Deadly Throw used to be a valuable asset in PvP when combined with the interrupt bonus from our PvP set gloves. Once that feature was removed, DT fell off the action bars of most rogues. We have always lacked a potent ranged attack, and Shuriken Toss looks to change that. It will be especially important since there's a strong possibility that we'll lose Throw altogether in Mists.
How strong is Shuriken Toss?
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say. Shuriken Toss, at first blush, seems perfect for the job of adding a ranged attack to our arsenal. It costs a moderate amount of energy, deals a moderate amount of damage at a moderate range, and provides us with a combo point. It's quite obvious that we'll always want to combine Deadly Throw with Shuriken Toss to give us an outlet for our combo points when dealing sustained ranged damage.
The question is how powerful Shuriken Toss ends up being. If the damage is too low, it won't be worth our time. If it doesn't apply poisons, it may not be effective enough in PvP. Are there going to be any glyphs to affect it? Shuriken Toss can usher in a new era of ranged rogue DPS, or it could simply be an ability of last resort for those moments where we're waiting for Baron Geddon to finish exploding.

Regardless of how good Shuriken Toss ends up being, rogues are always going to be a melee class first. We have too many mechanics and abilities and talents that rely on melee range. Don't expect to see rogue standing back with the mages and warlocks any time soon. Melee is always going to be our bread and butter, and that's never going to change.
What is changing is what we're capable of when our bread and butter is missing. Now, when we're without the ability to melee our targets, we can still remain somewhat functional. We can build up combo points for when we're back in melee range; we might be able to keep our poisons applied and maybe even deal some damage while we're at it. Shuriken Toss isn't about enabling rogues to become a ranged class. It's about giving us something to bridge the gap between enemies.
A rogue's most powerful weapon is his versatility. We've got a cooldown or an ability for nearly every situation, and that preparedness and flexibility gives us the upper hand in our encounters. With Shuriken Toss further developing that story, rogues look to be more capable than ever.
And come on, you can't tell me it's not going to be sweet, sweet revenge when you kill your first frost mage with Shuriken Toss while you're frozen inside of his Frost Nova.
Filed under: Rogue, (Rogue) Encrypted Text






Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Amanda A. Mar 14th 2012 12:16PM
The DK ranged attacks do generate runic/grant a chance to regenerate a rune (depending on the attack) so that's covered.
Bumblebee Mar 14th 2012 10:29AM
Am I the only one who feels Shuriken Toss should be a basic ability instead of an ability?
As said in this article, it's a tool we've been lacking for a long time, and it fills out that need very well. However, for the final talent we get access to, it doesn't really feel like it's this really powerful and awesome thing. It's more like something we should had all along.
While intellectually I can see all of the lv90 talents being quite powerful, I dunno, they all feel rather meh. Nothing makes me say "This is awesome!" My response is more in the lines of "That's nice, dear."
Versatility is very handy for target switching, but it feels half done. Might as well remove that one click, and just make Combo Points stack on the Rogue, if you're going that way. Anticipation looks more like a QoL change. It smooths out DPS rotations, removing some of the RNG out of it. Things become very predictable and you never waste Combo Points, while you also never have to use less than full point Finishers. It's nice, but I don't see it actually altering our basic rotation too much.
TLDR: Shuriken toss feels more like a basic class ability we should have had all along. Versatility looks half done. Might as well have Combo Points stack on the Rogue. Anticipation smooths out rotations, but it doesn't really alter them in a very meaningful way. Just less RNG and waste, while making them easier to predict and anticipate, as the name suggest.
They all look like good abilities, but they lack the WoW!-factor you'd expect from our final tier talents.
Shrikesnest Mar 14th 2012 10:36AM
You have some good points vis-a-vis the "wow factor," but I'd just like to point out that half-finished is a perfectly reasonable state for Mists ocontent to be in. Give it some time.
JattTheRogue Mar 14th 2012 11:31AM
I'm tired of people saying the talents aren't finished or aren't even in beta or whatever. Yes, we know, we get it! We're commenting on the state of the talents as they are now. The entire point of us expressing dissatisfaction is the hope that they will be changed BEFORE they become completed and we get stuck with something un-ideal.
With that said, I completely agree with Bublebee. I see some of the other class' level 90 talents, and I'm floored. I can't wait to use Gorefiend's Grasp and Remorseless Winter on my DK tank, and I'm looking forward to being able to tweak my mage's playstyle with the different ways their level 90 talents affect mana regen. And then I come to my rogue, and everything is a quality of life ability/something we should already have. As Bubblebee said, Shuriken Toss should be a class ability, even if they have to drop the power slightly. Versatility ... I'm just incredibly sad that we have that as a talent, because it means that, for MoP at least, combo points won't stack on the rogue, which is something we've been asking for for a while. And Anticipation feels like nothing special. OK, we'll be able to use two finishers in a row. Semi-useful for PVP, doesn't sound like much of anything for PVE. Assassination wouldn't even want to use that most of the time so they don't cut off the Envenom buff; they'd only use it to potentially bank some points to be able to apply Rupture again and Envenom together. It will help with timing slightly, but I don't see it doing anything major, and it's a level 90 talent!
That's probably my biggest issue. All the talents aren't necessarily bad things and can even be really useful in the right situations, but they're not anything that makes me excited or feels like something big. If they were scattered throughout some of the lower talent tiers, I'd be fine with them, but for our level 90 talents? Boring is the only way I can describe it.
ZodiacDragons Mar 14th 2012 3:58PM
Anticipation is the one I actually want as Assassination. Shuriken Toss looks nice but I think Anticipation looks nicer. No more will my 3 point generating mutilate be wasting points. I will now almost always be dropping 5 point envenoms and ruptures. I agree Shuriken Toss is something we should have had a long time ago in our arsenal.
Stilhelm Mar 14th 2012 4:15PM
Actually, Anticipation would be great for assassination rogues when you know you won't need Shuriken in an encounter. You'd always be able to do 5cp envenoms without wasting a lot of combo points. Right now, a mutilate at 3cp can still waste a combo point. Too bad it seems like it won't affect cp gained from honor among thieves.
Twill Mar 14th 2012 4:52PM
@ Shrikesnest
If you don't comment on Blizzards decisions, they will keep them. By critiquing them like the OP did, people can see what the problems are. If you designed something and didn't know there would flaws, would you fix them? NO. You didn't know they were there.
People need to realize that YES, MoP is still barely in beta. But YES, critique is important, as NOW is the time to get blizzard to actually make the changes!
JattTheRogue Mar 14th 2012 6:03PM
OK, I didn't think about the wasted points from getting a 3-point Mutilate. It will be decently beneficial for Assassination, then. But I still think my point stands: it's a boring talent for level 90 that will just help the rotation be smoother, not be something exciting.
Shrikesnest Mar 14th 2012 9:49PM
Oh, yeah, fair enough. I'm not saying you shouldn't comment on the direction the game is taking at all; obviously, feedback at this point is not only important, but perhaps more likely to influence the game's direction than at any other time. I'm merely stating that "half-finished" isn't a very useful criticism of something that is really more like ten percent finished, which is within Blizzard's expected parameters. I can understand the backlash against my comment, though, and accept all offered criticism.
Bumblebee Mar 15th 2012 7:16PM
@Shrike From the context of what I wrote, "half-done" in the sense that a talent like that isn't taking it far enough. I wasn't saying anything about development timelines. Versatility is kinda like ordering a burger and having to open 4 boxes just to get to the juicy food. The extra click there isn't making it fun in any way. If Redirect has no GCD it can be macrod to your main attacks. If it does, then Versatility is just gonna feel clunky and you know, half-done.
Edymnion Mar 14th 2012 10:29AM
I still honestly do not see this getting used at all. Not in it's current form, and not with the other two talents its going up against.
Anticipation keeps us from wasting all those extra CP procs we will be getting in MoP, and Anticipation basically moves CP to the rogue instead of the target, making it a must have in any fight with target switching.
Lets see, there's the talent we will need for every normal melee fight, there will be the talent we need for every fight with adds, and then there's Shuriken Toss, which is useful only in fights specifically designed to screw melee characters.
Honestly, I plan on taking two combat specs, one with Anticipation and one with Versatility. I would love to have Shuriken Toss, but it is so very situational right now that it isn't worth the tradeoff of not taking one of the other two.
Bumblebee Mar 14th 2012 10:32AM
"I plan on taking two combat specs, one with Anticipation and one with Versatility."
You only need 1 Combat spec. Just switch the talents according to your needs. Much simpler.
Shrikesnest Mar 14th 2012 11:16AM
The new talents can afford to be more situational since they can be switched at anytime out of combat.
Edymnion Mar 14th 2012 2:28PM
Wait, we'll be able to change talents at the drop of a hat without respeccing?
Well damn, sweet, I obviously missed that one! Objections to ST withdrawn.
kronstifitler Mar 14th 2012 10:49AM
great article! love it, thank you.
themightysven Mar 14th 2012 11:21AM
Now I'd like Deadly throw to apply Rupture if it's not active and we're all set...
Camo Mar 14th 2012 12:00PM
The problem is how to balance it.
Is it viable you won't go into melee range, is it not but you need ranged dps you bench the rogue. In any other case you take either Anticipation or Versatility and twiddle your thumbs during the ranged phase.
Another 'option' is to screw setups and design a fight where Shuriken Toss is just balanced which leads to questions on how other classes perform and what happens when you stack classes.
Twill Mar 14th 2012 4:54PM
Or, like with all talents and classes in MoP, you can NOT take S throw in melee-only fights, and then swap to having it in ranged-phase fights.
I'm sure what Blizzard intends with this ability is to allow rogues to keep up activity and not energy cap. That's all. On some fights, this is the perfect tool for the job.
Camo Mar 14th 2012 9:09PM
Sure, you can change your talents on the fly but that isn't the problem we are talking about.
The question we have at hand is whether it's viable during progression or not.
Because it does NOT matter if you should take S Toss or another ability for a boss that you can down.
A bleeding edge guild will bench the rogue for a superior range dps if it allows them to down the boss.
It doesn't matter much if S Toss is a good or bad option for a medicore guild where the players lack the skill to pull top notch dps or provide a optimal setup anyway.
If S Toss is a good option on a progression boss that adds more dps when you stack rogues instead of arms or fury warriors because they lack a range dps.
On the other hand if S Toss is only another version of a ret pallies Excorsism or an Enhance Shamies LB it is worse than taking one of the other abilities and pumping out more melee damage (depends on math as always, but if inferior to a range dps see above).
Quidamtyra Mar 14th 2012 12:03PM
Ah Shaz... wonderful, wonderful Shaz... I remember the whole raid forming a circle around him, and us poor melee wondering why Blizzard hated us so much. I would throw my thrown (of which I had more than one stack on me for MC runs [remember that? when they freaking stacked?]) at the boss for 10 minutes while the ranged chipped away at him. After we got more geared (BWL status) they let the best 5 melee into the constant AoE to make the fight better, that was when pants-shitting-fun happened. =p
I'm sure their intent was to use our level 90 talent as a filler for when some phase of a boss requires us/the boss to move out of melee range, just so we don't feel completely useless
during it. But the thing I feel most excited about is getting Shadowstep as a combat rogue. I've been combat for most the life of the game, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to stay combat, so being able to jump to targets for switching is going to be a very grassy icing on a very Pandaren cake.