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3-17-2012 @ 2:08AM
The number 1 reason Guild Wars is considered the top choice for MMO-similar PvP (not a full MMO, but super close) is because PvP gear -IS- standardized - and winning just rewards cooler looking gear.In other words:Yes, standardize the sets so anyone in an arena has equal gear to anyone of their class - and for a reward, give out super cool Arena only transmog sets that people can display in PvP or PvE. (if you have that set, let it be the look of your PvP standard gear. Let the basic PvP gear that people start with before earning anything otherwise look like 'greens' - generic to show that these folks ain't got nothing yet.Result: PvP winners can show they are kings (and queens) of PvP by pure human skill alone, and not via eBay. When they want to stretch their geeky e-peen, its geeky e-peen they and others know they earned.That's why folks are still playing Guild Wars arenas this late into that game, with no updates in content for years other than new fashion accessories. Because when you win there, it was you that won. Not your gear.That's why I really have zero respect for even a top WoW PvPer. All that means is they can grind/buy gear better than me. But folks who beat me when I used to PvP in Guild Wars - I knew they were better than me, and the ones I beat knew I had something on them.That gave a certain geek-cred you just can't earn in WoW. ;)WoW pvp is fake-pvp. Its really just a gear race.
3-17-2012 @ 6:17AM
Whir I don't PvP arena I think making progression be just about looks is a bad idea. Saying "Win PvP get good looking gear", however good looking is in the eye of the beholder. What is cool looking to one person may be ugly as he'll to another. So PvPers go "grind" your ass off so you can get worse looking gear than the person who rarely plays, yea! That's a great incentive.Another problem I see is in order for those people to show of that gear they CAN'T transmogrified it. To show that you are advancing you got to wear gear you may hate and not be able to transmogrified even if that's something you enjoy. Would people play heroic raids if they offered no gear upgrades what so ever? Some maybe but I almost guarantee that a lot less people would do it.
3-17-2012 @ 8:09AM
This is a pretty arrogant comment. What you're saying is you assume no one is truly better than you - they simply have better gear. Some people are very skilled at PVP regardless of the gear they have.
3-17-2012 @ 8:13AM
Yeah its not like WoW pvp has anything to do with skill. I know if I had the gear I'd be 2.2k in arenas.....
3-17-2012 @ 10:54AM
Barring a few minor issues- a legendary here, an OP trinket there- PvP in WoW has never really been about gear.It's true that gear makes a difference at low levels. A player in the latest season's top rewards will have a significant advantage over everyone else stepping into the arena without resilience. But that is for toe-to-toe, knock down, drag out, slug fest fighting. The gear does not do very much for changing the dynamic of team coordination, layering crowd control, target swapping, and game knowledge.To that end, I've seen players step into the arena in vastly inferior gear, and beat teams with significantly more resilience and matchmaking rating (1200 versus 2400) and still win. They were able to do this because they understood all the tools of their class. They knew what abilities their opponents brought to the table. And they developed the reaction time and team coordination required to compete at high levels.Nobody is fantastic when they first start to PvP. It took me 4 years before I was able to achieve some of the goals I set. Gear helped. That's why in one aspect, Cataclysm was great for PvP: gear is very accessible. We just need to amass the honor to get it.But for all the gear I had, the largest part of reaching my goals was learning. I had to get in there, get bloody, and lose many, many matches and duels before I learned how to play my class. There is no substitute for practice. And if you aren't making the progress you think you should be, then seek out good players who are willing to observe, listen, and assist. They exist- really. But just like in real life, you need to go through a LOT of jerks before you find a decent person.I know it can be frustrating to take a game so seriously, just for the sake of being competitive in PvP. But that is what the top players do. If you want to play with them, then you have to do it too. Gear won't make make you enjoy the game any more; only skill can do that. So get out there and develop it!
3-17-2012 @ 11:23AM
Well said Jyotai. And a catch-all head shake at the fallacy-ridden nonsense people are replying to you with. Disclaimer: I don't play GW PvP. But I do have a brain.
3-17-2012 @ 1:10PM
I strongly suspect that neither Jyotai, nor Langis have been above 2300 rating in arenas.If permitted that assumption, it's safe to conclude that their opinions on PvP are those of the novice or beginner. Beginners will frequently be thrown into battle against highly skilled players (who have gear because they took the time to earn it) and often mistakenly conclude the gear is the only difference.This is the one true fallacy of the beginner. PvP is entirely different from PvE. As en example, Cataclysm's final tier of raiding brings 8 bosses. That is eight different fights to master. Each one takes analysis, an assessment of individual/group ability, and much practice.Consider that WoW PvP brings 30 different class specializations to the game- capable of arranging themselves in many different teams. Furthermore, the synergy between teams greatly varies with their composition. Thus the number of possible combinations is vastly larger than all the boss encounters of an entire expansion. That is a lot of scenarios to master- it takes time!That is why I am looking forward to MoP. The addition of another class adds more than just three specializations of complexity. Additionally, the introduction of base resilience will help to reduce the frustration that new PvPers mistakenly attribute to gear issues alone. Instead, it will help to refocus people on the real issue: practice and skill.Let me also offer these words of encouragement. When people in arenas start accusing you, or your team of being bad, ignore them. Validating their comments with a response only feeds the communication. The person who says this is really just frustrated that the team lost. There's nothing wrong with being frustrated. Losing is not as fun as winning, generally. You are not bad. You are merely learning. Stick with it, ignore the jerks, and seek out people that actually help you improve.Then one day, you might see them again on the battlefield- and when you beat them, you can show them how to win with class.
3-17-2012 @ 1:28PM
Exactly, Greg. I recently stepped back into arena on my rogue (over 10K HKs on that toon alone, probably pushing 50K HKs across all my toons, so not really a novice) with a priest friend. Our first match was against a frost/fire mage combo, and we lost. Sure, they might have had better gear. Sure, the match was frustrating because of the sheer amount of CC that team had against a melee. However, I was within a hair of killing one of them while my healer was still up, which would have been game over. And you know how many times I used Smoke Bomb? None! Had I remembered that one simple ability at the right time, we could have won the game. If I had been able to use my other cooldowns just a little smarter, we could have won the game. If *we'd* have tried pillar humping, we might have won. The list of things we could have done better goes on and on. We didn't lose because they might have had better gear. We lost because we could have done a lot better with our skill.I know very well that even if we had the absolute best PVP gear on our rogue/priest (so comparable gear to those at the top), we still wouldn't be competitive at the top, perhaps not even for the whole season. We have too much to learn, to many mistakes still waiting to be made and learned from. We have too many games to lose, astounded at the things the other team was capable of. Neither of us are really hardcore PVPers, so we may never get to the top, and we know that. It doesn't mean we won't have a lot of fun anyway. Those frustrating losses are more than off-set by the epic wins. And when we barely squeak by on a win against a team, and meet them again next match and beat them soundly, it feels good to know that instead of them figuring out how to turn the tables and defeat us, we learned how to dispatch them more effectively.
3-17-2012 @ 3:19PM
PROTIP: When someone calls out responses as being fallacy-ridden, it may not be wise to use a logical fallacy in retort, like "I suspect they've never hit X arena rating."Jyotai would be correct no matter what his rating, whether he was a WoW beginner or the best PvPer in the world.
3-17-2012 @ 5:50PM
Langis, those of us that have done more than a little PVP know that gear isn't the only reason people hit 2300+. And if someone is good enough to hit 2300+, they will have learned by then that gear isn't the only thing that matters as well. In any case, if you're so eager for WoW PVP where gear is a non-issue, then check out the Arena Tournament server when it opens again in May. I'm sure you'll be top-ranked in no time!
3-17-2012 @ 7:13PM
Nice strawman, but as valid as any other strawman.Though I should know better than to not expect another strawman fabricated out of what I'm about to say, here goes:Yes, skill still matters despite gear imbalance.No, that doesn't even remotely defeat the argument for a level playing field.Brazillian soccer players don't get rocket cleats, multiball, and 3 goaltenders. There's a reason for that, regardless of whether or not Rob Pardo wants to see it.
3-18-2012 @ 10:54AM
Langis, I'm cont certain you understand the terms 'strawman' and 'fallacy'. You've now casually thrown them out, without illustrating your point.The level playing field has been in place for years now; the arena tournament Blizzard hosts. Do you participate?
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