Mists of Pandaria: Raid Finder loot system changes clarified
by Matthew Rossi 
Mar 19th 2012 at 5:50PM
Zarhym -- The new LFR roll system
First, other players will not affect your loot in any way. Another player winning will not cause you to lose. Another player winning a mace will not mean that she took your mace. If there are many rogues in the raid, your chance of winning a rogue item is not diminished. We may decide that each player has an X% chance to get loot, or we may decide that X number of players get loot, and then randomly determine who those lucky players are.
Second, the item you win will be "useful" in the sense that it's potentially usable by your current spec. This does not mean that warriors will get leather because warriors can equip leather (at a huge stat loss). It also does not mean that the game will always give you an item you want or an upgrade for the items you have. It just looks and says "You are a Holy priest, so here is a random item chosen from the Holy priest-appropriate items that this boss can drop."
Second, the item you win will be "useful" in the sense that it's potentially usable by your current spec. This does not mean that warriors will get leather because warriors can equip leather (at a huge stat loss). It also does not mean that the game will always give you an item you want or an upgrade for the items you have. It just looks and says "You are a Holy priest, so here is a random item chosen from the Holy priest-appropriate items that this boss can drop."
You'll still have a chance to not get the item you want and have to come back again, but at least this will curb that hideous sinking sensation of seeing Gurthalak drop and knowing yet again that someone else is going to get it instead of you, leading to hostility. Zarhym then goes on to explain the bonus roll system, which is a roll you can effectively trade in for a guarantee of some kind of reward, be it extra gold or a random drop from the boss. At present, this is all only for the Raid Finder, with a possibility of seeing the systems in dungeons if it works out.
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Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Raiding, Mists of Pandaria
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 4)
gewalt Mar 19th 2012 7:12PM
@Revynn: It only takes one person to make a non-issue into a huge issue. Loot drama has caused plenty of problems for people that are mature enough to make it work for them.
Sally Bowls Mar 19th 2012 10:30PM
@Revynn: so the solutions are either:
1) fundamentally change human nature. ( Blizzard would go bankrupt if they only sold to intelligent, selfless people.)
OR
2) Change the loot system.
I believe #2 is easier and quicker.
MortalCoil Mar 20th 2012 12:24PM
Man Zarhym would make a good politician
Kaiserette Mar 19th 2012 6:08PM
well now , why not just give all the loot away with a years subscription rather then work for it .
Pyromelter Mar 19th 2012 6:23PM
old complaint is old.
Also, funny video is still funny :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsBHxK6u16A
Armill3 Mar 19th 2012 6:11PM
So, there won't be any competition with others for loot, meaning it will be like the loot bags for world event bosses?
Here's to hoping they hit a probability sweet spot for useful drops, and we don't end up with ridiculous dry spells.
Pyromelter Mar 19th 2012 6:19PM
Here's a guess: loot will still be tradable. So if a holy priest gets a nice set of spirit shoulders, and then gets a shoulder tier piece on the next boss, that priest could trade the spirit shoulders to another priest in the raid.
The bonus system Zarhym described should hopefully prevent epic dry spells, like people farming for reign of the dead for 5 months and never even seeing that damn trinket drop until i paid 15k gold in a gdkp group for it. (No really, I'm not butthurt about that at all.)
droknar Mar 19th 2012 6:24PM
Looks like a smarter version of loot bags, where instead of the items you could potentially win being completely random, if you do win, it'll be something your class/spec can most likely use.
Revynn Mar 19th 2012 6:40PM
- "So, there won't be any competition with others for loot, meaning it will be like the loot bags for world event bosses?"
That's my understanding as well, the difference being that you'll skip the "loot bag" portion and you'll simply see "your loot" on the boss.
- "Here's to hoping they hit a probability sweet spot for useful drops, and we don't end up with ridiculous dry spells"
Dry spells happen even with the current loot system, so it's not like that would really be a new thing if it hapened. I'm betting that they'll tune drop chances to closely match your current chances of winning something off of a boss as, for example, a healer in a 25m group with 6 healers and 3 healing items of 18 total on the loot table. Someone who's better with statistics and probability could likely figure out what exactly that chance is.
Revynn Mar 19th 2012 6:20PM
For those that are still confused, think of it this way.
Currently, in normal/heroic DS, you're given an item that you can turn in for a grab-bag of gems every time you kill a boss. These gems can be green quality (and often are), blue quality and, if you're lucky, epics. Everyone gets one of these items so you don't have to worry about rolling against someone or determining who should get what, blah, blah.
The new system will work the same way. The difference is that, instead of crappy green gems, you'll get gold. Instead of a smallish chance of getting an epic gem, you'll get an item off the boss' loot table that's useful for your class and spec. Another difference is that you won't get an item that you'll turn into an NPC for another item that you open, the whole process will happen when you loot the boss.
Another example is the satchels we got from the ICC weekly quests. We turned in the quests and got 1) our emblems and 2) a satchel that most often contained gold, but could also contain an ilvl 264 BoE. Everyone got that satchel and 1 person getting a BoE didn't affect everyone elses chances at a BoE. Yes, it was theoretically possible for -everyone- in the raid to get a BoE in their satchel, but I don't know of any cases where that actually happened.
Pyromelter Mar 19th 2012 6:27PM
Actually, it's not going to work like that at all.
Which is why we are trying to make analogies about things that are "clear as (fill in opaque object"
Revynn Mar 19th 2012 6:52PM
- "Actually, it's not going to work like that at all."
How can you say that when you're also saying that it's clear as mud?
If they decide to do this:
"we may decide that X number of players get loot, and then randomly determine who those lucky players are."
. . . then it completely defeats this:
"First, other players will not affect your loot in any way. Another player winning will not cause you to lose."
. . . which means that they have to do this:
"each player has an X% chance to get loot."
. . . which is a grab-bag system without the "bag" part.
Pyromelter Mar 19th 2012 8:35PM
Rev, go look at Jamus' explanation of the system under my first comment on this article.
Then look at yours.
Then go to the part where Zarhym says "We may decide that each player has an X% chance to get loot, or we may decide that X number of players get loot, and then randomly determine who those lucky players are" - there are a lot "mays" and an "or" in there.
There's quite a disparity between what you say and what jamus says, and then Zarhym comes in and says "jk guys we haven't decided how it's exactly going to work yet."
That's why I'm claiming it's not going to work like you are saying, as well as being as clear as mud.
A grab bag system is a completely individual roll, like everyone has their own individual loot table for each boss. That would mean that 25 people could get epics, or 0 people could get epics. If they decide that X number of players get loot, then the grab bag system is automatically out...
Anyway the point is you can't say it's going to exactly work like you are describing, because blizz hasn't decided on the specific implementation yet. That's why I say it's not going to work like that at all, while having the situation being completely muddied.
Revynn Mar 19th 2012 10:13PM
- "Anyway the point is you can't say it's going to exactly work like you are describing, because blizz hasn't decided on the specific implementation yet."
I should have been clearer. Beta is beta, after all, and there's obviously a lot of time for everything to change. I wasn't trying to say "This is exactly how it will happen and it's set in stone" but rather "this is my understanding of what they're saying". They've said they still haven't decided, so I can't say that "it WILL happen this way", but by that same logic, you can't say "No, you're wrong and it absolutely will not happen that way" because . . . they haven't decided. That's just semantics, though.
My point is that they've presented a goal, that other people winning loot will not affect your chance to get loot. "Another player winning will not cause you to lose." They've also presented two possible outcomes for how they'll configure it. 1 - The grab bag, and 2 - X amount of people get loot. The problem is that Option 2, X amount of people get loot, automatically negates their stated goal. If I'm not randomly chosen as one of the people who gets loot, then I have "lost" while someone else has "won". This system is both better and worse, because there will be no more spite-needing or gear trading, but it also means that a person who has no potential upgrades (they have all the items from that boss or just want the VP can still win gear they don't need or want when they normally would have passed on everything, therefore taking a "chance at gear" from someone who could otherwise use it.
The only way to accomplish what they're trying to do is to go with a grab bag system. Actually, here's exactly what he said later on in that post:
" 'You have a personal slot machine to play, and so do each of the other 24 raid members, and no ones personal slot machine affects the outcome of anyone ELSE'S slot machine.' -
This is correct."
"Imagine everyone entering the raid gets a lottery scratch off card for each boss, and after a boss dies, everyone scratches off a card. Some players win. Some don’t."
Draelan Mar 19th 2012 11:19PM
@ Pyromelter
Hm... I honestly hadn't thought about the possibility that the "roll higher than X and you get loot" system meant that it was possible that NO ONE got loot... That certainly would be problematic.
Perhaps they could do something like, "Anyone within X points of the highest roller wins loot." So, for example, if we use 10 for X... IF the highest roller rolls a 58, then anyone withing the 48-58 range wins loot. This would prevent cases where NO ONE gets loot... Although that still leaves the possibility of cases where only 1 person gets loot...
I can definitely see why Blizzard is undecided with this. The solution is not nearly as simple as it might seem on the surface, and it is important to weigh the pros and cons of each possible solution.
Task Mar 19th 2012 6:21PM
@Matt Rossi
I can sort of add on to the loot changes, i don't know know if you answered my question during the live Wow Insider show earlier today.
They said, via Lore of Gamebreakertv, that there would be a new token called Elder and Charms of Good Fortune. I don't recall what was said about the Elder part but the charms could be used to roll for bonus loot at the end of a boss.
In essence you could save the Charm to roll for extra gold, flasks or heroic loot. Though Lore was might have said that as an example too.
As an aside, Gamebreakertv released the info at the same time as you, Team Liquid, Wowhead, etc.
Hope that helps. :) And thank you for the live podcast too.
Task
Medivhal Mar 19th 2012 6:27PM
His statement isn't an ironclad 'this is MoP's loot system'. It's more a statement that Blizz acknowledges there's an issue with the current loot system in LFR and that they'll be trying different approaches to remedy the issue.
razion Mar 19th 2012 6:35PM
So they made loot independent. Yay! No rolling against other people!
Gear will also only drop for you based on your talent type that you're doing the dungeon in. Er, sort-of-yay-but-not-really?
While you don't roll against other people, you roll against a supposed robot or invisible roll to see if you actually win the loot (roll for obtain: 32, roll for not obtain: 21, something like that?). Uh, alright I s'pose. I guess some level of RNG has to be there aside from if something dropped. Yeah, sure, why not?
There is also a chosen bonus roll you can do in a limited quantity in these areas for additional reward, like guaranteeing one item to be obtained or getting gold. I kind of like this, I guess. Depending on how easy it will make gear to get going forward, this could be troublesome, however.
I'd rather they had changed the gear made available based on class instead of talent build. I know a few people who like to do LFR and dungeons as tanks and healers, normally because they can't trust other people to do the roles (or would feel more comfortable them doing it instead of a random stranger), and normally they do them to gear for their secondary dps tree. Or, alternatively, go in as dps to gear their healer tree because they have no healer gear, and thus can't heal the dungeon if they wanted to.
I sort of like how they're promoting people to play the role they need gear in (practice makes a better player). This will bring in people who otherwise wouldn't tank or heal until they're geared through the teeth, but on the other-hand will push away those who already are from gearing up other trees with the gear they've obtained. Time will tell to see how this plays out.
Still, a system that can be abused by others (such as win-trading) is by far worse than a system that prefers players to play in a talent build they're gearing for. I'd much rather have an under-geared dps in my group instead of a good healer if it means there isn't any loot drama in that same group. And I think that's the real idea they were going for.
gewalt Mar 19th 2012 7:15PM
they said this new loot system will only be for LFR (for now) which means you can still quite readily gear up for tanking/healing while in a dps role in 5 mans. 5 man loot is more than adequate in DS LFR and I have seen no indication that paradigm is shifting in mop
Zeroum Mar 19th 2012 6:37PM
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?79087-MoP-Press-Tour-Interview-with-Greg-quot-Ghostcrawler-quot-Street
"GS: So a couple of things we’re doing that are a little different this time is, in Raid Finder and for the world bosses, we are not having loot rolls. We’re having per-player loot. So what this means is, the game will decide that X number of players, say it’s 3 to 6 in a raid, are going to get loot this time, and then it gives them loot that’s appropriate for their current spec, whether that’s their main spec or offspec. We feel like loot works really well in organized groups who can sit there and decide who’s gonna get the item, and when you’re with your guild or group of friends, even if you don’t get the item and they do, you know that still helps your progression ultimately.
None of that happens in Raid Finder, and there’s a lot of drama, a lot of hard feelings, like, “He just needed that item because he could! He’s not going to use it! I could use it, it was a huge upgrade for me!” So we feel like just going to per-player loot, almost in a Diablo sense, will help with that, because then, if you get a sword, I don’t get mad that you got the sword instead of me. Maybe we both get the sword. Maybe neither of us did."
What I understood:
In 25-man LFR: Boss is dead, Game chooses 5 players, those 5 will get the best loot for them. Other 20 players get gold.
If one of the players already has all the loot he needs, another player who didn't loot that boss will be chosen.