"Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but this makes it sound like we could go for weeks without even seeing loot hit us or may get the same item relentlessly from the same boss over, and over, and over again"

What, you mean just like the current system?

I'll clarify:

"Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but this makes it sound like we could go for weeks without even seeing loot hit us or may get the same item relentlessly from the same boss over, and over, and over again" only now we have no Valor system to back us up, and we have no choice over when to roll. Taking power away from the player (over something as simple as choosing to roll or not to roll) disempowers the player and lends to fatigue.

I hope I am wrong about this in the end, but it seems like to fix Raid Finder they are trying to kill it. This system takes what was bad and makes it worse. It's like a reactionary's solution: the horse is injured? Kill it. The dog can't bark? Kill it. The mayor is corrupt? Kill him.

As someone who studied Game Design and Management: taking player choice away once it was offered earlier is always bad. Need proof? Ask Bioware about the sell-back rate for ME3.

See, I feel the exact opposite of you, Zachwbrandon.

Entry-level Heroic dungeons are supposed to be closer to Wrath-level in difficulty. This will allow players to get their initial raid-ready gear fairly easily (and don't forget about rep faction loot!). After that, every tier of this expansion will come with a LFR version allowing for people to easily gain access to boss attempts. With the inclusion of LFR at every tier in conjunction with easier heroics, there really isn't a need for a full set of VP vendor gear. Once we get into the second tier of the expansion, when you're not having luck winning an item for a slot you can use your VP to augment its ilevel, allowing you to fill a needed gap.

Now, as far as random loot goes - it's always been a loot fairy. In my guild's DS Raid, we've been getting nothing but cloth and Paladin/Worlock/Priest tokens for weeks and no one needs them. Random will always be random. For LFR though, this new system they're introducing is superior. In theory, it allows a chance for every person in the raid to get a drop that is guaranteed to be for them. Currently a set number of pieces drop independent of the classes and rolls that are in attendance. Now, a number of people who exceed a roll threshold will win a piece that *is* equip-able.

Three months in under the current system (Randoms, LFR, and a weekly 10-Man) I still have slots to fill. I've beated Deathwing's head in multiple times and never caught a new weapon - mine is still from the Trollroics on my tank.

Now they are stripping VP as a method to fill in the gaps. They are disabling rolling on a sub-optimal piece of gear to gain some traction because it is for Monks instead of Druids. They are guaranteeing that people will be more peeved at gearing in the next expansion by reducing player choice. Even if the new system is superior - a possibility I readiy accept - it will be perceived as a reduction is choice and be rejected by a great many people.

LOL @ myself for "beated"!

This system however only pertains to LFR. Custom made groups for regular or heroic dungeons and raids will still be able to give you sub-optimal item pieces at their discretion.

Personally, I still prefer this valour system of augmentation over gear. For example: assume we're in Tier 15 and I already have my 4-piece T14 set. However, I've been having terrible luck with rolls in my 10-man raid group and haven't won anything. Currently, I'd have to buy a piece from the VP vendor and break my set bonus. Now, I'll be able to augment the ilevel of my pieces and make them more powerful without having to sacrifice the tier set bonuses while I wait and pray for a new tier piece to drop. That sounds far more attractive to me.

- "Why not just use the holiday boss system? Everyone gets some Valor and Gold, perhaps a potion or material, and then at random the package dropped by the boss contains something awesome (and that cannot be traded)? "

It IS the holiday boss system. The only difference is that instead of getting a bag that you open, the game opens the bag for you.

But it's NOT reducing your choices. Most people always rolled. Now, as a mage, instead of rolling against the other mages, priests, warlocks, healing pallys, druids, and shamans for that intellect trinket, i roll against the game essentially. One roll. Unaffected by other players. No more banging your head because you beat 12 other rolls, but the last guy rolls a 178 and you rolled a 177.
Didn't win anything? CHOOSE to use your bonus roll now, or CHOOSE to save it. They took away our "choosing" to need or not, because people weren't choosing not to.

@zack, you seem awful worked up about this. It's not really taking away your choice, it's taking away your choice to be an anonymous jerk. Three months in and you haven't won a weapon? Gee, I wonder why... It couldn't possibly be because 98.2% of the folks who CAN need on the weapon you want do so. Not because they actually need it, but because they want to use it as collateral to trade for the tier piece that some other guy won two bosses ago.

That is the choice it's taking away. No longer will you lose Soul Drinker to the DK who's already dual wielding them because he rolled need so he could give them to his buddy who wants one.

Heck, one time I had a guy who was eagerly trying to trade out a piece of loot. I asked if he didn't get any takers if I could have it. He asked me what I had to trade and I told him "nothing". So he kept it and vendored it because the 10g he got vendoring was his best option for a piece of loot he couldn't use as an upgrade.

Those are the types of things that this system combats. You want to rant? Go rant at the sea of faceless players out there who couldn't play nice in LFR. It caused a lot of grief and this is Blizzards answer to that. I think they've done a pretty good job myself.

@zack, better example for you...

Say this new system had been implemented in LFR for Dragon Soul. If you've killed Death Wing for 3 months straight as a tank, then the chances are strongly in your favor that at least one of those times you would have "won" the roll with the system to be a player who receives loot. As Death Wing only drops weapons, it stands to reason that you'd get the weapon you want.

Anyway, let's give this system a chance before we all start bashing it as one of the signs of the coming apocalypse you seem to regard it as. I'm sure there will be some tweaks along the way, but seeing as you're currently playing, looks like Blizzard built a pretty good game so far.

I'm not horribly worked up over this. I just am sounding a warning for Blizz. The system is not changing: therefore the fundamental problem is not fixed. However, the method they are using to alter the perception of the problem - essentially managing the player population rather than genuinely responding to the player complaints - will backfire. I've even admitted that I could be made to eat my words.

However, as an example: the Affordable Care Act does nothing new with regard to insurance. As is, the system punishes people for being responsible and allows others to take advantage. The alteration to the system - the mandate - simply switches the impetus: the system cannot be gamed, and folks trying to will be punished no moreso than they are today. Despite this particular lack of change to the system folks are resisting it reflexively because it feels like a deprivation of choice.

The new system takes the option away to roll or not to roll, and removes the display of an item to make your mouth water. After years of operant conditioning, this change will completely change the perception of the work being done in completing content. Despite what folks may think about 'fun' it boils down to work done for some reason or another - intrinsic or extrinsic. WoW is an extrensic system. This new system is not. Suddenly folks are expected to run dungeons with no proof that things are being handed out (unless it advertises who won, and what they won, in which case the original issue remains - friction between winners and, for lack of a better term, losers).

I'm approaching this from an academic standpoint. Blizzard can do what it wishes with the game. I just think that based on years of sociology, political science, and management training that this new system will blow up in their faces. I maintain the initial thought thought from my post: I hope I'm eating these words in 10 months.