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3-28-2012 @ 2:30PM
"The orcs rewarded Terenas for his mercy by helping defile everything he ever had."Yeah man, damn those orcs for destroying Lordaeron and spreading a horrible undead plague that turned all the Lordaeron citizens into gruesome undead monsters. If only all the orcs would have been killed, they never would have been able to ruin Terenas' kingdom! Oh wait that's right, the downfall of Lordaeron had nothing to do with the orcs.Also, you're giving Varian way too much "noble" credit for his actions in Ironforge. What he did was lead a TEAM OF MURDERERS into Ironforge to ASSASSINATE Moira. And VARIAN didn't really create the Council of Three Hammers - he wanted nothing more than to butcher Moira. The Council was really only created because Anduin was wise/merciful enough to halt his murderous father.I'm not saying Varian wasn't completely justified, mind you. But don't say he went in there as some virtuous champion out to set things right. He went in to kill Moira, and save Anduin. Nothing more.
3-28-2012 @ 2:32PM
From Varian's perspective, yes, the orcs are to blame for allowing it to occur. Sylvanas is part of the Horde, is she not? If the United States had found American citizens being tortured and experimented on in a lab in any part of the former USSR, they would have blamed the Russians.
3-28-2012 @ 2:59PM
@Matthew Rossi So wait, I am confused. Is this article written from Varian's perspective then? And not actual events? When Lorderon fell, did the Alliance believe the scourge and the orcs were allied? That is interesting.So how did Alliance end up working together with the orcs in Hyjal if they thought the Orcs were allied with the scourge? Or did this perception of the Orcs and Scourge come later? After the wraithgate?
3-28-2012 @ 3:00PM
Firstly I have to say, I'm not a big fan of Varian Wrynn as a character, so I apologise if my lack of enthusiasm for him is too apparent. The mission to Ironforge to save Anduin was, as Mike says, not a Champion rushing to aid his allies, but a vengeful, scared father determined to slay Moira and rescue his son. However, he did stay his hand when Anduin reasoned with him and I believe it's this event that starts his journey toward being less of an angry, rage filled moron and more of what the Alliance expects in a leader.I'm not sure I'll ever like the character, the Wolfheart abomination has put me right off him, but at least he's gaining more of a personality.
3-28-2012 @ 3:07PM
@ Rossi ~So, are we saying that Arthas Menethil had nothing to do with that whole "murdering his entire kingdom and creating the Scourge, from which the Forsaken rebelled, thing"?Because there was this whole expansion called Wrath of the Lich King that you might want to consult as to the salient Lore points on that issue.
3-28-2012 @ 3:10PM
@NagainaArthas is dead. Varian knows exactly what Arthas did, but Arthas isn't the one currently inventing plagues and unleashing them on anyone who gets in his way. Varian knows about what Arthas did, but he also knows that Sylvanas is the one currently acting just like Arthas used to, and with Horde support, as far as he can tell.There's a reason Seventh Legion shows up in the Silverpine quests. Varian knows Sylvanas used the exact same plague (at least as far as he can tell) that the Scourge used, the same plague Putress used at the Wrathgate, on the people of Gilneas.
3-28-2012 @ 3:12PM
@Transit:You're conflating the Scourge and the Forsaken. The Alliance is well aware that the scourge came from a plague created by a human warlock and was lead to conquest by a human prince. However, now that the scourge is defeated, the Horde is backing a faction of undead that is free of the scourge's influence but continues many of it's most evil traits; engineering and spreading a new plague, conquering Gilneas and driving out it's people, etc. If the Horde isn't willing to step back, denounce those actions, and either force the Forsaken to give up the plague, give back Southshore and Gilneas (and likely at least part of Lordaeron, which was a human kingdom...) or sever ties with them and let the Alliance drive them out.Long story short: any atrocity committed by Sylvanas or her people (which includes Putress; she never objected to his work until he turned on her...) is on the Horde's head as long as they support her.
3-28-2012 @ 3:22PM
@ Rossi ~*Arthas* destroyed Lordaeron. Not the orcs. Not the Forsaken. The Forsaken -- the actual citizens of Lordaeron -- are defending the homeland that *Varian Wrynn* swore to take from them with sword and fire during the battle to retake Undercity from Varimathras and his puppets.If Varian Wrynn didn't want the consequences of war with the Forsaken to fall on his people, he shouldn't have declared it.
3-28-2012 @ 3:28PM
@NagainaThat's one perspective, yes. But it's not the only one. Varian grew up in Lordaeron, as did many people who currently live in Stormwind, who fled the demons of the Burning Legion who made the Lich King and who were once served by the orcs. To many humans (and there are as many survivors of Lordaeron living outside of it now as there are Forsaken in it) the Forsaken are monsters mocking their loved ones and squatting in the ruins of their homeland, and worse, spreading out from Lordaeron to attack Gilneas, Alterac, and Arathi, which were never part of Lordaeron. The Forsaken, to those people, are a threat to all life who must be stopped.You see it from the Forsaken side, because you're a player and you have that ability. Varian does not. Alliance figures, including the many survivors of Arthas' rampage across Lordaeron, do not. Imagine it this way: if your home city was turned into a ravening ruin infested by zombies, and you escaped, would you care that among the zombies were your parents? Especially when the zombies want to kill everyone with a disease and make more zombies out of them? That's the Forsaken as seen by outsiders.You have to try and remember, people inside a fiction don't see everything you, as someone experiencing the fiction, sees. Their viewpoints can be consistent even if they don't match your own. Varian and the others of the Alliance haven't played Warcraft III or WoW.
3-28-2012 @ 3:30PM
@DaedalusI know. :-) Actually I was confused that the article couples the allliance perspective of the orcs and scourge. I know the scourge were not part of the Horde. When Lorderon fell, Sylvanas was still a High Elf and Thrall had escaped to Kali. It just seems odd that Varian thinks the Orcs were responsable for this, since at the time the scourge started the orcs were still in internment camps.I have to wonder now if the Alliance will do anything about the Dark Iron Dwarves. They are part of the Dwarf empire now and they torture, kidnap, enslave, etc. as well. Should be interesting.
3-28-2012 @ 3:32PM
Just to make clear that DEAD PEOPLE should not be allowed to live on the living world. If LORDAERON was their former living place, then UNDERCITY should be their current resting place. A big (and locked) crypt to keep safe the living from the dead (orcs, tauren, blood elves, trolls and goblins included). That said, Lordaeron was human territory. And Undercity is not human at all (and never was).
@ NagainaAs already mentioned above, Varian knows that Arthas destroyed Lordaeron.However, at the Wrathgate it was the Forsaken, members of the Horde under Thrall at the time, that launched a plague upon the combined forces in front of the Wrathgate. Varian may have officially declared war on the Horde in the Undercity, but open warfare had already been going on for years between the Horde and the Alliance. He didn't need to declare since it was already a fact.No doubt it was a rogue portion of the Forsaken that launched the plague at that time but it was an open secret if you've done the Forsaken quests that Sylvanas had ordered the development of the plague. Experiments were conducted in the open on Alliance soldiers and civilians (and still are if you visit the Apothecary today). Varian saw this firsthand in the Undercity. Even after this "rogue" element of the Forsaken was eliminated, the combined Horde forces continue to use the plague in Gilneas and the destruction of Southshore. Varian and the Alliance hold the Horde accountable for these actions.
3-28-2012 @ 3:47PM
@Matheus314But werewolves are A-OK! Undead bad! Werewolves good! Mummys.... Well it will depends on what faction they join.
3-28-2012 @ 4:24PM
"From Varian's perspective, yes, the orcs are to blame for allowing it to occur. Sylvanas is part of the Horde, is she not? If the United States had found American citizens being tortured and experimented on in a lab in any part of the former USSR, they would have blamed the Russians. "Just to modify that a bit. It's more like the States finding out that Japan had American citizen's being tortured in a lab, and blamed Russia for allowing Japan (their allies) to do it. Remember that Undercity is FAR from Orgrimmar, and if you argue that Varian can't know the difference between forsaken and scourge, you logistically ought to concede that Orgrimmar can't fully know or control what the forsaken are up to. Thus, the orcs can't be responsible for what happens in Lordaeron.I would say though, that Varian knows what we know as players, and then some. My character has no idea what happened in "Wolfheart" or "The Shattering". I don't think it matters though.. Varian has plenty of reason to hate the orcs, and plenty of reason to hate the forsaken. (They ARE unabashedly evil, after all...and their existance is self-admittedly a torture and a corruption of their souls.) And they are most certainly a threat to all life on Azeroth. (Sylvanas is destroying souls in creating more forsaken... there is no justifying that; the forsaken aren't a race, their existance is more akin to a disease. Compassionate people don't kill the host, but they do quarantine the area and stop the spread... wait for the hosts to die off if there is no cure to be found.Despite my endles criticism of Varian, I do give him credit where credit is due, and I think he would be informed about what the orcs are and aren't respinsible for, and aware of what Garrosh does and doesn't control. If he chooses to resent the orcs for being ignorant/complacent in Sylvanas's atrocities, and assign some blame to them as a result....well THAT is totally understandable. I mean you gotta turn a critical eye to Germany's allies, who in WW2 knew about the concentration camps and REMAINED their allies, don't you?
3-28-2012 @ 4:35PM
@mason.jdouglas"Just to modify that a bit. It's more like the States finding out that Japan had American citizen's being tortured in a lab, and blamed Russia for allowing Japan (their allies) to do it. "The next time Russia can order Japan to attack another nation in order to provide the Russian/Japanese alliance with a port for further invasion, I'll accept your argument. The second Russian soldiers are seen throughout Japan, serving as police and army, this argument makes sense. The Horde is not ALLIED to the Forsaken. The Forsaken are IN THE HORDE. No matter what we think about Sylvanas' actions, from Varian's perspective, any action taken by the Forsaken is supported by the Horde, including the orcs who are clearly the dominant faction in said Horde. "Remember that Undercity is FAR from Orgrimmar, and if you argue that Varian can't know the difference between forsaken and scourge, you logistically ought to concede that Orgrimmar can't fully know or control what the forsaken are up to. Thus, the orcs can't be responsible for what happens in Lordaeron."That's a specious argument. Varian doesn't have any reason to distinguish between the Forsaken and the Scourge, but the Forsaken are in the Horde, and Horde troops (including orcs) were present for the action in Gilneas. Varian knows this, because his Seventh Legion fought them and would have sent reports back. Varian knows the orcs DO know what happens in Lordaeron. If the orcs send Warlords to take part in the invasion of Gilneas how can they then be claimed to be innocent of knowing what's transpiring in Lordaeron? IVarian SAW Thrall and orcish troops in Lordaeron. How can the orcs claim not to have an awareness of what's taking place there?You're trying hard to use your knowledge of the game world to justify your argument, not what Varian would know or infer. Furthermore, you're assuming the orcs aren't in any way responsible for what's happening in Lordaeron, but they are. There are orc soldiers in Undercity right now. Are they stopping the Royal Apothecary Society from torturing prisoners of war or experimenting on them? Are they preventing the use of the Plague in Gilneas? Are they taking any action at all?Even from a metagame perspective, much less one of a leader at a time of war, the orcs DO bear responsibility. Varian saw Undercity and was horrified. Thrall saw it, and did nothing. Garrosh, his successor, supports the Forsaken invasion of Gilneas with troops. What is Varian supposed to believe here, that the orcs are innocent of all this while they take part in it?
3-28-2012 @ 4:33PM
Another concern,Can people please stop using the downvote feature? I find alot of the comments that get greyed out on this site are actually well written counterpoints that make quite alot of sense. I already read and liked Rossi's article, and I enjoy his comments and those who agree with him.But simply because people introduce a good counterpoint is no reason to make it damn near impossible for me to read and consider it. Just upvote the ones you like and leave the rest alone.K, thanks, bye!
3-28-2012 @ 4:36PM
3-28-2012 @ 5:14PM
@ RossiGood post, I accept your your distinction between Alliances and Hordes. Though, Varian tends to order his "Allies" around in game. Not relevant to the current argument... but a reminder that literal terms don't often have their defined meanings in WoW.So yeah, I concede that the Horde is responsible for what's going on in Lordaeron. As to what Varian actually knows, alot of it is speculation on my part and yours. My worgen warrior however, recalls overhearing Sylvanas plotting to use the plague despite Garrosh's strict orders. And Varian knows firsthand that the Wrathgate pissed Thrall off. So, I think he has reason to doubt the Horde's unity.Sure Garrosh is in "Charge" but he has Sylvanas out of control in the eastern kingdoms, doing whatever she wants, despite his orders. Sure he's got a token force of troops there, but you're right...what DO they do except allow it to happen. He's got the Tauren having a Grimtotem revolution, that had to be put down in part by the Alliance. He's got Vol'Jin coming to the Alliance for help, because he knows that their leadership is more stable.Garrosh IS a terrible warchief in Varian's eyes because he fails to command the Horde well. And he's gotta know Sylvanas is outta control, but does he do anything to stop her? I don't think Varian holds the Horde responsible for what it does, but for what it fails to do. I mean, do you blame Dr. Frankenstein, or do you blame his Monster? Garrosh fails in his responsibility, but he's not solely responsible for his monster's actions.That said, I don't question that Varian blames the orcs for Lordaeron, but I'd think he still has to blame the forsaken more. As for knowing the difference between forsaken and scourge.... factions talk? There are forsaken in the Argent Crusade, and other external factions, and forsaken would take offense to being called scourge, I would think. So, really Varian has to have at least heard rumors that the Forsaken consider themselves different from the Lich King's minions... But he doesn't really have to believe it. Hell, I don't think most of my Alliance or Horde characters would believe it. Have you seen all the crazy shit the forsaken are up to around the world? Even my forsaken character has a hard time believeing they're different!But again, there's no telling what faction leaders do and don't know, it IS mostly speculaton between us. If you have people teleporting all over the world, and third party factions accepting all applicants, information should be pretty accessible, right?
3-28-2012 @ 5:22PM
The Alliance is *supporting* the Grimtotem by supplying them weapons. For that matter, the Alliance attempted to occupy Mulgore itself, and are still besieging it.
3-28-2012 @ 5:36PM
@clundgren The Alliance make friends with the Grimtotems in Stonetalon, then drive them out of Freewind Post in Thousand Needles. No, it doesn't make much sense other than "Grimtotems are evil and automatically betray everybody, even when it's not in their own interest."
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