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3-29-2012 @ 1:31PM
The part of the movie that gets me the most is...how the heck did Orgrimmar ever become liquid enough to loan money? Let alone to Silvermoon, a place that's practically swimming in gold?In the Shattering, the orcs being close to broke was a major plot point - they could barely afford to pay Gazlowe the costs for repairing their city, even after he decided to play good guy and drop the price for them. Since then, they've been in the orc version of a wartime economy - everything gets thrown at the goblins to make demolishers, warships, zeppelins - between that and the plot point about their difficulty raising crops and importing water, Orgrimmar's not exactly a net producer here.It seems more likely to me that Garrosh has simply decided to enact some kind of "loyalty tax" essentially, 'give orcs money or we kick you out of the Horde and beat you up' and the rest of the Horde isn't playing nice. It makes no sense otherwise that Silvermoon owes so much more than the other city-states; they're certainly not dropping cash hand over fist into their military like the orcs are, and there's never been a hint so far as I know that they're not reasonably self-sufficient. It makes more sense that Garrosh arbitrarily decided at some point, 'you're a rich nation, you provide few warriors, your contribution to the Horde from now on is that YOU give US the money to train and gear warriors' and now Silvermoon is simply refusing to hand their economy over to the orcs, something in keeping with their longstanding isolationism.
3-29-2012 @ 1:40PM
I think this is it as well. Garrosh just DECIDING what you owe.
3-29-2012 @ 1:44PM
"It seems more likely to me that Garrosh has simply decided to enact some kind of "loyalty tax" essentially, 'give orcs money or we kick you out of the Horde and beat you up' and the rest of the Horde isn't playing nice."This, yes. It's not about loaning money, it's about being behind in your membership dues.Notice, though, that the Trolls weren't mentioned.
3-29-2012 @ 1:47PM
Yeah, I don't think "orgrimmar is loaning money" so much as "we're fighting a war and the nations owe taxes to us".It'd be nice to see a followup where they talk about what Orgrimmar might have contributed themselves...
3-29-2012 @ 1:48PM
Good point Jeff, I hadn't noticed that. Perhaps Garrosh simply thinks the trolls beneath his notice, or else simply too poor to prop up Orgrimmar's economy in any meaningful way. Silvermoon's debt being so much higher than TB and UC's makes me think he decided to go after (what seems to him like) the big fish first.
3-29-2012 @ 1:51PM
I certainly agree with you! I would like to add that perhaps the orcs have become much economically better off since the Shattering due to their expansionist endeavors, as we've seen in the new (Cataclysm) version of Kalimdor. More territory leads to more resources, which leads to more weath.
3-29-2012 @ 1:54PM
Is it any surprise that silvermoon owes that much? They're pink skins like those humans that Garrosh hates.
3-29-2012 @ 2:12PM
@ ShinaeThat's an iffy thing, though. Orc territory really hasn't expanded very much past vanilla, and remember, all that iron, stone, and lumber they're culling is immediately getting turned around to churn out demolishers, warships, fortresses, weapons and armor for soliders, etc.Unless the orcs just came into SO MUCH material wealth that they can furnish their entire military effort AND have enough left over to sell it off to their allies, and that I'd have to take with a few grains of salt.And even then, if we took the above part on faith, that still leaves the question - why would the other nations be buying from them? The Forsaken have been materially independant as far as we know since they joined. You might make a case for the tauren needing lumber for that big-ass Mulgore wall, but that sill leaves Silvermoon owing a ridiculous amount of money for no apparent reason.
3-29-2012 @ 2:33PM
Ugh, Garrosh, this again? You make it impossible to defend you, boy.That being said, I have to agree that it is exactly what it sounds like. And it kind of makes sense. The blood elves don't really contribute *anything* to the Horde, I can see Garrosh seeing them as moochers and demanding more from them. I can also see why the Belfs (and seriously, guys, enough with the hate it isn't funny anymore) would refuse to agree to it. They do fine on their own, and Garrosh doesn't seem inclined to help them with crazy face in UC, so why should they help when it isn't any of their business. There's few enough of them and scattered as is.
3-29-2012 @ 2:52PM
Silvermoon has contributed plenty to the horde. The horde helped them get to outland but that's pretty much it. Why should they pay to fight a war against the people who saved them and their own families? Velen reignited the sunwell after all. Plus they still have yet to rebuild silvermoon.
3-29-2012 @ 2:59PM
@Omegan01Actually, I was thinking that Garrosh said, "Hey, Volly, you and the Darkspear owe us X gold--a month."And then Vol'jin would reply, "Get stuffed!"
3-29-2012 @ 3:08PM
@JeffYour just brought forth this image in my head of Garrosh ordering the Darkspear trolls to pay up on his new loyalty tax and on the due date he gets a box from Sen'jin Village with a note attached saying "here is all the tribute the Shadow Hunter intends to give."Garrosh opens it up and inside the box is nothing but a black-feathered arrow.Garrosh then quietly cancels the Darkspears' debt and spends the rest of the day hiding under the bed.
3-29-2012 @ 3:31PM
It may not be so much that the factions of the Horde owe funds to Orgrimmar but that the various factions have been borrowing from the Goblin cartels to fund the war effort. I can't see how Orgrimmar has the funds to loan to the various factions. Could be the war effort is bankrupting the Horde.
3-29-2012 @ 4:28PM
@Luotian:"The blood elves don't really contribute *anything* to the Horde, "Except mages, priests, blood knights to their army, access to Dalaran, experts on magical items - basicly a whole shebang of all kinds of magic related stuff - possibly a handful of ships (elven destroyers anyone?)... Those damn blood elves sure are a useless bunch.
3-29-2012 @ 4:29PM
More like "Garrosh is bleeding his allies to pay the goblin cartels that are actually building the Horde war machine."
3-29-2012 @ 4:36PM
Heh. I'm not a hordie but I still think Belf-hate is hilarious. ;-p
3-29-2012 @ 4:46PM
Blood Elves do make up 31% of the Horde, so even on a pure headcount basis, it's fair to assume they'd owe more. Source: http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?serverid=-1&factionid=2&minlevel=10&maxlevel=85&servertypeid=-1So what if it's not canon?
3-29-2012 @ 5:00PM
The blood elves also basically provide what is likely the *only* post-scarcity/well above subsistence-level economy in the entire Horde.Let's put it this way: what do the *other* members of the Horde have to provide in the way of *salable trade goods*? The Tauren are, even now, largely subsistence-level hunters and gatherers, whose primary export goods would be hides and leathers, perhaps some small quantity of foodstuffs. The trolls, likewise, are primarily at the subsistence level, whose primary salable export would likely be rice -- though, given that rice appears to be the grain staple food of the Horde, it's likely that their entire product is either sold or otherwise used internally, i.e., it doesn't enter into the open goblin cartel run trade market. The orcs and the Forsaken are primarily exporting *warfare.* The Bilgewater Cartel is facilitating this export.What do the blood elves have? An economy that is largely internally productive and self-supporting. Their primary import is probably food. Their primary exports? Cloth -- finished pieces and wholesale cloth exports. Alchemical products. Magical devices, armor, weapons, enchantments that can be purchased and applied at an individual basis. Engineering products that are less likely than either goblin or gnomish devices to blow the user's arms off. The produce of their archaeological endeavors. Some of this they can do in considerable bulk. The blood elves are basically the master artisan craftspeople of the Horde, the race most likely to be producing trade goods desirable across factional lines for both their beauty and their utility -- blood elf aesthetics are *awesome* aesthetics, and they have left their artistic stamp on some of the most important places in the world, even now.Given that there's more than one goblin cartel, I can see the blood elves being the economic engine of the Horde via trade through the Steamwheedle Cartel and other neutral parties who exchange goods and services across factional lines as middle-men. Somebody in Orgrimmar finally got wise to this and decided that if the blood elves couldn't provide "blood" to the Horde war machine in significant quantities -- they probably have one of the lowest canonical populations in the world, after all -- then they could damn well provide "treasure" to help pay for all those blimps and boats and bombs. Lots and lots of treasure.
3-29-2012 @ 5:22PM
A "loyalty tax"? Seriously? And wondering what the orcs contribute?Look, Garrosh is running a war. And wars are expensive. So, yes, he collects taxes from the other members. He doesn't have to worry about the leader of the orcs paying his share of the war because, hey, that's Garrosh Hellscream. More than likely, Orgrimmar and the Horde share a treasury.Presumably the Forsaken and tauren owe less because they contribute more bodies to the cause; you just don't see that many blood elves out there as generic Horde grunts. Although the argument that Silvermoon looks the most prosperous may have some merit. Of course, the fact that half the city still seems to be ruins doesn't help that idea much.
3-29-2012 @ 5:40PM
@Boobah: In defense of how long it's taking for Silvermoon to be rebuilt, remember that until more or less the end of BC, the majority of the Blood Elf population were anticipating joining Kael'thas in the 'Promised Land' of Outland, and were only doing the bare minimum to keep up their Azerothian holdings until they could all leave. By the time Wrath comes along, they had only just starting on rebuilding their nation; remember that they suffered a LOT of attrition to Kael's forces, not to mention losses in battle and probably more than a few choosing to rejoin their Alliance brethren once the Sunwell's reignition meant they didn't need Fel energy anymore.
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