Blue Posts: Ghostcrawler on bear damage, tanking philosophy

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Blue posts
Heads up to all of you who are Boston-bound, Crithto and I (Bashiok) will be cozying up with NVIDIA in the NVIDIA Freeplay & Tournament Area at PAXEast! We'll be showcasing the Diablo III and Mists of Pandaria betas on NVIDIA hardware, chatting you guys up about the games as you saunter by, and holding Diablo III beta signups.
Come for the games, stay for the witty banter! ... Or beta keys. You probably care more about beta keys.
Come for the games, stay for the witty banter! ... Or beta keys. You probably care more about beta keys.
A couple of things:
1) Bear damage in beta is currently too low. That is almost certainly the cause of any threat problems. It isn't anything you're doing wrong.
2) Tanks got gibbed for missing Shield Blocks back when bosses could perform crushing blows (and back when warriors were designed to be the only tank). Mechanics work very differently today. We want bears, and all tanks, to have more control over their own survivability because threat isn't really that hard to maintain once #1 is fixed. You still have emergency buttons for when things go wrong or when you know big attacks are going to land. However we didn't think a tanking model designed around using long cooldowns and standing around the rest of the time would be very fun. So the new design is that using your attacks skillfully will give you some mitigation, in this case Savage Defense. It's not often going to save your life and fumbling it isn't likely to get you killed, but if you play well, your healers may notice and say "Wow, you require less healing than many tanks I run with."
Think of it this way:
Beginner tank - can maintain threat. Probably 100% reliant on healers to stay alive.
Intermediate tank - can maintain threat. Skilled at using long cooldowns to live.
Advanced tank - can maintain threat. Skilled at using long cooldowns to live. Skilled at using short cooldowns to save healer mana and otherwise make things go smoother.
More skilled tanks also know more encounter specifics, such as when adds are coming, when to interrupt spells, when to move bosses and so forth.
-----
Maul is a DPS alternative to Savage Defense, and is comparable to Heroic Strike. You shouldn't need Maul to maintain threat (which as I said above may not be the case on beta right now, but that's the intent).
In what situations would you want DPS instead of mitigation? There are several: Maybe you're an off tank and taking little damage. Maybe you want to solo as Guardian. Maybe you're running a dungeon you out-gear. Maybe a new add just arrived, and it's important to get one swing in before it heads to the healer, assuming you can live without SD for a few seconds. (In that example, you're not spamming Maul to fight to maintain threat; you're just establishing initial aggro, which we still want in the game.)
To be honest, we considered pulling Heroic Strike and Maul from tanks, just because we thought they might be a trap. But we decided there were enough situations where more DPS might be desirable. To use my previous examples, inexperienced tank will use Maul too much. Intermediate tanks might forsake Maul altogether. But expert tanks will know when they should use it.
You can try to keep up Savage Defense as much as you can on challenging content, and the best tanks will, but I would still consider when to use it. I would not save it for a big boss smash that isn't going to land for 20 more seconds (because chances are you can use it now and then later), but if one was going to land in 8 seconds, it might be worth holding Savage Defense for then.
1) Bear damage in beta is currently too low. That is almost certainly the cause of any threat problems. It isn't anything you're doing wrong.
2) Tanks got gibbed for missing Shield Blocks back when bosses could perform crushing blows (and back when warriors were designed to be the only tank). Mechanics work very differently today. We want bears, and all tanks, to have more control over their own survivability because threat isn't really that hard to maintain once #1 is fixed. You still have emergency buttons for when things go wrong or when you know big attacks are going to land. However we didn't think a tanking model designed around using long cooldowns and standing around the rest of the time would be very fun. So the new design is that using your attacks skillfully will give you some mitigation, in this case Savage Defense. It's not often going to save your life and fumbling it isn't likely to get you killed, but if you play well, your healers may notice and say "Wow, you require less healing than many tanks I run with."
Think of it this way:
Beginner tank - can maintain threat. Probably 100% reliant on healers to stay alive.
Intermediate tank - can maintain threat. Skilled at using long cooldowns to live.
Advanced tank - can maintain threat. Skilled at using long cooldowns to live. Skilled at using short cooldowns to save healer mana and otherwise make things go smoother.
More skilled tanks also know more encounter specifics, such as when adds are coming, when to interrupt spells, when to move bosses and so forth.
-----
Maul is a DPS alternative to Savage Defense, and is comparable to Heroic Strike. You shouldn't need Maul to maintain threat (which as I said above may not be the case on beta right now, but that's the intent).
In what situations would you want DPS instead of mitigation? There are several: Maybe you're an off tank and taking little damage. Maybe you want to solo as Guardian. Maybe you're running a dungeon you out-gear. Maybe a new add just arrived, and it's important to get one swing in before it heads to the healer, assuming you can live without SD for a few seconds. (In that example, you're not spamming Maul to fight to maintain threat; you're just establishing initial aggro, which we still want in the game.)
To be honest, we considered pulling Heroic Strike and Maul from tanks, just because we thought they might be a trap. But we decided there were enough situations where more DPS might be desirable. To use my previous examples, inexperienced tank will use Maul too much. Intermediate tanks might forsake Maul altogether. But expert tanks will know when they should use it.
You can try to keep up Savage Defense as much as you can on challenging content, and the best tanks will, but I would still consider when to use it. I would not save it for a big boss smash that isn't going to land for 20 more seconds (because chances are you can use it now and then later), but if one was going to land in 8 seconds, it might be worth holding Savage Defense for then.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
kaerras Apr 3rd 2012 3:13AM
The problem I have with GCs response on bears is that he essentially ignores a major part of the guys argument that he is responding to. The guy asked a question about the disparity between warrior/paladin rage/hp spending moves providing mitigation AND damage/threat, while the bear tanks just provides mitigation. IMO, as someone who has spent plenty of time tanking on bears and both shield tanks, bears have always been the redheaded stepchild of the tanking world in terms of tools provided to them.
Saeadame Apr 3rd 2012 3:57AM
Sort of an unfortunate truth of bear tanking through the ages. I've always felt bear tanks are kind of "warrior-lite" tanks, although I do enjoy playing mine. I'm kind of hoping that splitting the feral tree will allow bears to be less affected by cat PvP concerns, and maybe we'll see some changes. Ghostcrawler's response seems kind of dismissive of the original topic, but I guess it doesn't mean they aren't thinking about some of these issues behind the scenes.
Artificial Apr 3rd 2012 6:38AM
He doesn't ignore the point. He addresses it in two ways -- first, by noting that the damage component is indeed too low and will be corrected, and secondly by explaining how they want the bear mechanics to work in this regard. If your argument is that his response doesn't say, "You know, you're right -- we've failed to completely homogenize bears so they work identically to those other classes, you're right, and we'll fix that so they're just furry warriors," you're absolutely right, he doesn't do that. But that's a good thing...
Soulestream Apr 3rd 2012 7:33AM
@Artificial
You missed the point. Its not that bear damage on beta is too low or that it can't be adjusted.
There are two big problems right now.
Pally/DK/Warrior - Hit one button for big damage and gives a dmg reduction.
Bears - Hit on button for 60% of all your resources that does dmg OR hit one button that uses 60% of your resources that gives a dmg reduction. Those things are not remotely the same.
Pally's and DK's also have the luxury (can't believe I am saying that) of having two resource systems, so if they are out of one, they can at least fire something off with the other. Bears right now on beta hit SD, wait for there non rage buttons to light up, wait to get back to 60 rage, hit SD, wait if nothing is off CD (everything is, but Maul I believe and we can't use maul because we don't have the rage for SD).
Blizz killed this exact playstyle for ret paladins because it was whack a mole and boring and then moved it to bears. Splitting bears from cats was supposed to give us more tools and more intriguing play style. Right now, we autoattack until a button lights up and press it. They have a lot of work to do.
Mak Apr 3rd 2012 10:02AM
You might want to double check that, Warriors are in the same situation as Bears. Shield Block doesn't do damage.
kaerras Apr 3rd 2012 10:25AM
I will cede that point to you, sir. After looking over the talent calculator, I do see that shield block costs the same rage and offers similar effects - mitigation without damage.
I am of the opinion that it is important not to have too much homogenization, but at the same time, when it comes to tanking, its all about your toolset. If threat is fixed, as I am sure it will be, then the damage from the move is superfluous and can be ignored, except for the Fun Factor.
It feels nice to throw a 3pt ShoR and crit for 70k or so. I know there are many people who dislike vengeance as a mechanic, but personally I love it. I do about 17-20k singletarget in pug heroics, while in my full tank set. It feels more fun, to me, to be an unstoppable tanking machine WHILE dishing out enough damage to see an effect on my target. All things considered, boss health is tuned to take this into account, so I enjoy that tanks get a bit of the dps fun as well.
If ShoR and Death Strike add mitigation abilities, I am of the opinion that the Shield block and bear bubble should be tied to something, similar to the Pulverize throwback that the OP(that GC responded to) suggested. Stick warriors one to shield slam. Fun!
Jordan Apr 3rd 2012 1:42PM
Perhaps I do not know bears, but I do know Manglehorn @ Silverhand (While he played) and I can say this: Between my Warrior and Him he was by far the better tank. Maybe this is pure skill (dropping 23k on heroic Firelands was pretty nuts from a tank stand-point IMO...) but it seemed that as a bear he was perfectly happy with his mitigation and survivability. Heck we were able to single tank content that most serious raiders lifted their eyebrows about. Single tanking Yor'sahj on 10 man when the content just hit, without must issue, was impressive at the time, considering he was still in FL gear - but I am not sure what things MOP has planned for the bears. One thing is for sure I was not feeling that the bear tank was an inferior tank by the end of cata,
kaerras Apr 3rd 2012 2:23PM
Re: Jordan
In my experience with bear tanking in the Cata era, the primary issue with the toolset was not one of boss-tanking problems. MT or even OT is not an issue for bears, particularly while they still have the capacity to shift to Cat and dps to a solid degree when OTing - during boss tanking, rage is generally not an issue due to the amount of damage coming in, and bears passively reduce a large % of damage even without pushing additional buttons.
The problems I encountered in the Cata era was more of heroics/trash tanking. Early on, bear AoE threat was significantly reduced, when swipe was given a cooldown and certainly at the start of the expansion, it hit like a wet noodle. Thrash has been a nice addition, and was a welcome addition, but certain things have always been different, and gave a feeling of warrior-lite that the other commenter mentioned. For a few examples, bears are the only tanks without a ranged silence (skull bash's range is much shorter, and is not truly a ranged silence since it acts as a charge - ranged silences move casters towards the pile you already have, not moving you and the pile elsewhere, forcing re-placing of mobs that are now behind you)
Warrior charge generates rage, bear charge costs it.
Warriors blocking generates 15 rage, bears dodging generates 3.
Seems like I am remembering a smaller number of defensive cooldowns vs. other tanks, but I cant document that at the moment.
Sometimes itemization issues..
There are a number of things, but I specifically remember a bad experience or three at the early stages of Cata, when Vortex Pinnacle drove me nuts on my bear. Many caster mobs, not many opportunities for LoS pulling, and impatient idiot dpsers who wouldn't wait for LoS even if it was available.
I am getting somewhat excited about taking up the bear again in MoP, hoping that things like the mass-deathgrip and whatnot will solve some of those types of problems. Dungeon design, such as the HoT heroics, seem to have fixed much of that as well, with small, clustered trash packs.
I rant.
sam.fallbrook Apr 3rd 2012 3:35AM
That's why in 4.2 I ditched my bear as my main, and rerolled as a DK. RIP logan /cry.
gewalt Apr 3rd 2012 7:23AM
The reason I played a feral was for the cat/bear hybrid. This is not a new thing, I have been playing a hybrid catbear since the day BC came out. I have never been a bear, or a cat. I have always been a catbear. And now my poor feral is having his soul ripped in two.
I am going to miss the hell out of my druid.
boil.san Apr 3rd 2012 4:17AM
I want Combat Rogues to become the new kitty/bear…
Meaning, they can go either dps (kitty) or tank (bear)…
We can wait an expansion or two to feel our way into the tanking thing before we get converted to a four-spec class…! ;^p
goldeneye Apr 3rd 2012 4:56AM
Reminds me of a Naked Gun quote:
"Like a blind man in a whorehouse, I was going to have feel my way in"
Aaah Drebin, when will you ever learn :)
wshill Apr 3rd 2012 7:24AM
Somebody please explain to me the part about tanks "standing around". On my 10-man, our Pally main tank and my DK off-tank are consistently topping the activity charts on recount. Sure our DPS is insignificant compared to the others in the group, but it would be missed if we just "stand around". Tank survivability currently makes use of self heals and resources that you just don't generate if you're "standing around". Please by all means, someone, anyone, explain what he means by this because apparently in my 10-man we're doing it wrong.
Saeadame Apr 3rd 2012 9:55AM
The part about "standing around" was a hypothetical tanking model, in which threat is easy to maintain and there are no short cooldowns. Thus, tanks "stand around" (ie, press random attacks, or press their highest dps attacks or whatever), and only have to actually do something "tanky" when they're pressing their long CDs.
Drache Apr 3rd 2012 12:18PM
Oh look, a new expansion, which translates into:
- Hi all classes, you're playing a completely new game, but your characters and the world looks somewhat familiar.
- Hi warrior and bear tanks: please re-learn your class/role completely. Again! And sorry, we'll buff and nerf the everliving sh*t out of you, just like we did in the past. We'll also try to ensure that you'll never again run a dual-tank spec, because you'll suck outside of dungeons.
- (made-up blue) "our intent is that the rest of the party in dungeons will realize what kind of tank they're running with and adjust accordingly by playing smart." (queue laugh track)
In other news, water is wet, the sun is bright.
As always, the dedicated of us will adjust, all others re-roll (probably for ranged DPS or Panda-Rogue :P )