"Whats wrong with calling female toons gorgeous?"

Whats wrong is that thats ALL he calls them. The males get compliments on their strength and their apparent handsomeness/sexual prowess; where females just get "hey, you're pretty, holla at me girl let me get your digits". His dialogue is CREEPY and SUGGESTIVE. Its not a surprise if some male players don't get how this is uncomfortable for many female players: you don't experience the kind of sexism being presented here the way women do. But as a female player, I do find his dialogue disconcerting and it makes me uncomfortable and you don't have the right to dismiss the concerns of players who are put off by this because you don't see a problem. I play female toons because I like the idea of my female character being a strong, powerful hero, not a runway model in a chain bikini. Ji Firepaw needs to learn a lesson from Saurfang the Elder about egalitarianism.

@clundgren - Men are discriminated in divorce courts because of how misogynistic views continue to paint strict gender roles in a marriage. Women are viewed as naturally more adept at homemaking and caretaking and default better parents, while men are incompetent when it comes to child-rearing (its not manly) and naturally not equipped to be nurturing

I agree.

@clundgren:
The argument that women make less than men for the same job is actually a complete misuse of statistics. Virtually all commonly quoted studies carried out ignore hours worked/week (men do more on average), and years of experience (men have more on average). Even worse are studies that make completely unfair comparisons by grouping jobs according to completely arbitrary educational requirements (one study actually said that someone with a 4 year arts degree should expect to make as much as someone with a 4 year engineering degree /boggle).

I sat on the board of directors for our provinces PEng association and we recently did a province wide study on earnings compared across pretty much every possible demographic. Women on average had annualized earnings 22% less than men of an equivalent age in an equivalent industry. I'm sure you'd take that as ZOMG SEXISM. However, when we made a comparison of average hourly wages between men and women of equivalent years of experience rather than age, men made 6% less than women. Let me repeat that: MEN MADE LESS THAN WOMEN. It's all about how you present the data. I really wish I could supply a link, but the information has not been made public yet:(

Also, here's a fact for you that I'm pretty sure you won't believe: men are victims of physical spousal abuse far more than women. The only reasons that you are probaby rolling your eyes in disbelief at what I said is that a) men almost never report abuse, and b) how men and women define abuse is completely different. A study was done that simply asked "Have you ever been a victim of physical abuse in a relationship" and "Have you ever committed physical abuse in a relationship". Not surprisingly, the number of women reporting being abused was far more than men, and admitting to being the abuser way lower. The unique thing about this study is that they didn't just stop there. They then went on to ask more specific questions. "Have you ever slapped a partner in a moment of passion." "Have you ever thrown an object at a partner." "Have you ever dumped a drink on somone." When you actually specifically list out things that could be considered abuse, the exact opposite was found. Men were far more often the victims than the perpetrators.

There are many different opinions on this matter and even on this post, but I have to say that I think it's brave of the author to express himself so openly, knowing very well how strongly many individuals feel about this topic. And, while I might agree with some points and disagree with others, I'm not offended by this article at all; and, I actually think it's cool to have this subject brought up for discussion. I think it's great to play devil's advocate sometimes and hear another person's point of view. Everyone has a different perspective, especially with regards to more controversial topics, like this one.

I roll female characters almost entirely. I don't have anything against making male toons, but growing up in the 80s and loving video games to death, especially RPGs, I rarely had the opportunity to be a heroine. Instead, I was always the hero, rescuing the girl. And, there's nothing wrong with that, but after so long, it can get old. Plus, I'm a girl and I like being a girl. So, I like playing female characters. It's really that simple. Although, male Gnomes are pretty freaking amazing, as are male Dwarves, Tauren, Pandaren, and Draenei.

Sometimes, I want to be the damsel in distress; and, as someone whose hero is Susan B. Anthony, I'm okay with that. At the same time, more often than not, I'd prefer to be the hero of my own story. I'd like to think I'm strong, independent, and smart. I'd love to play a console game where I rescue the prince for a change. ;3 But, that's neither here nor there.

I'm not deeply offended by the fact that the females, in most games, end up in skimpy versions of gear. But, that doesn't mean it isn't sexist. It is sexist, lol. But, the problem is, it's a complex issue. Is it wrong that some girls think skimpy is sexy? Of course not. Is it wrong then, that some of those same girls, don't know that non-skimpy can be sexy, too? Not wrong, but it is sad, sure. It's -such- a complex discussion, honestly. I don't even think I can sum it up.

Personally, I think non-skimpy is great, but skimpy is okay, too. But, I've always felt that a knee-length skirt is just as, if not sometimes more, sexy than a mini skirt. But, both have their moments and both have their places. It's not what you wear that makes you sexy, it's how you wear it and the way you carry yourself. Of course, this applies to real life and not video games, lol.

With video games, the point is more, does my female character need to be sexy? Isn't she fighting baddies and hanging tough? And, if so, why would she choose to do that in a metal bra and thong? Did it escape her that she might be cleaved by a burly warrior and that gear doesn't exactly give her much protection? But, then you have people who say "It's a game, it's not meant to be serious." And, then there are those folks with the most understandable rebuttals to such a comment. Again, I say, it's complex.

However, I will say this, I do think the main reason gear for females tends to be so revealing on average, is because the developers know that most game audiences will tip the scales with guys over girls. And, possibly the developers tip the scales with men over women, as well. Plus, they know that lots of female players like their female characters to be scantily clad; they don't care if it's sexist. Or, they know it's sort of sexist, but simply aren't offended by it, so they really don't voice an opinion one way or another. And, some will disagree that it is sexist all together. I just wish there was more choice, personally. To each his own. Just don't limit me.

And, I think some women get offended when they're told that skimpy gear is sexist. Because, they misunderstand what a lot of people are saying. No one is saying it's sexist and wrong for a woman to like barely-there gear or for a woman to feel her toon is sexy or attractive, in such gear. The reason it's sexist is because that's not how a woman should have to look in a game to be interesting. She shouldn't have to be objectified physically, to make it okay that she's being strong and heroic. She should be just as strong and heroic, if she's wearing a potato sack. But, unfortunately with the media today and the way society currently sees beauty, you're going to be hard pressed to find heroic females who wear potato sacks. Again, though, this is such a long discussion. I think this area alone deserves its own article. x3 And, I don't think WoW is as guilty of this as other games, for sure. WoW is very friendly with the gear, I think.

The things I'm most bothered by are how the female models, such as the Worgen and Pandaren, get so much less attention than the males'. I honestly can't help but feel that the whole thing with the models is pretty sexist. If you look at the male Pandaren, that body is entirely new. That's his own and no other race in the game has that exact body. But, I'm pretty sure the female is just a reskinned, resized, and slightly tweaked female dwarven body. And, the thing is, that's fine! I like my Dwarven gals and I like the female Pandaren body. But, it's obvious which one mattered most.

The male body was given attention. It was created from the bottom up and the female's wasn't. The male Worgen's face is effing amazing and the female's is what it is and we all know what it is. There was no reason for that to happen, except the females mattered less. Why do we always see male models at Blizzon in the reveals, but never females? Because, they work on the male's first, of course. And, why do they do that?

That honestly ticks me off. If you can't do something right, don't do it at all. Give me both the male and female models or don't give me either. Plan on devoting enough time, beforehand, so you can do so. But, they know that more guys play WoW than girls. That doesn't say anything negative about girls. It doesn't mean that girls can't be great gamers or that it's a "guy thing." It means that there are simply more males that play WoW than there are females. And, they cater to guys over girls, in the way I mentioned above. I don't think it's intentionally sexist. I don't think that the staff at Blizzard and other game companies are being jerks about this. I think they're just not really giving it all that much thought, to be perfectly honest. So, am I offended? Not really. Am I annoyed? Sure.

As for the sexism in-game, that's a whole other can of worms. I don't care about the vent voice thing. That's just silly stuff. What I hate is how it's often assumed I'm a bad player or will be innately worse than the average male player, because I have ovaries. There are girls who aren't good, there are guys who aren't good. But, don't -assume- I'm bad, just because I'm female. That's just being a tool. And, if a girl turns out to be bad, it's not because she's a girl. It's because she's just not that good. Maybe she will be in time or maybe she will never be all that good. Who knows, but gender has nothing to do with it.

That's not even the worst of it, though. THE WORST is how it's assumed that because I'm a female player, that I will -use- my feminine wiles to dupe innocent guys into giving me free gear, farming for me, giving me their gold, and/or buying me things. I'm someone who likes cute things. I collect pets, I love mounts, and I use the " :3 " face, whenever I damn well please. And, what's even more vile are the girls who hate on other girls, for being less than one of the boys. Like, they are cooler or more worthy of things, because they aren't "girly" sometimes or because they don't use words like cute or adorable. Girls being crappy to other girls is just so gross, in my opinion. Where's the solidarity, sisters? I can be one of the guys, if I want to and I can be one of the girls if I want to, as well. People are multifaceted like that.

My biggest beef right now is the female Pandaren face, though. I'm not asking for it to change. Let's keep that face for all the players who love it, girls and guys alike. But, I don't enjoy the current muzzle. I like the male's muzzle. It's more panda-like and awesome. The girl's is more silly and chipmunk-like. I can tell she' a girl, she doesn't need to be overly cutesy for me to see that she's the one with boobs. All I want are options to have different faces with changes to the features.

Because it's nothing when a male who is to become your leader and thus an authority figure greets you with a) a comment on your attractiveness and b) a comment on your affect on a large portion of the opposite sex, right? Not remotely off-putting or odd.

Let's take sexism and abuse out of the equation for a moment and think. If a candidate running for senate--male or female and regardless of your sex--said this to you upon your first meeting, what would be your reaction? What would you say to that? Now maybe senate isn't the best analogy here...how about your boss? Principal? Heck, even a complete stranger, a peer at a bar.

Personally, I'd be at least temporarily thrown off-balance as to how to respond, at least until getting a better understanding of this individual and his reasoning for focusing on these things. Unsolicited compliments could possibly be innocuous, but in this specific context it sends up a red flag. Whether it's an attempt to curry my support or a personality quirk is yet to be seen, and I'd be a mite guarded.

In any case, it's not unfounded to argue that an authority figure complimenting a woman who is soon to be his charge is inappropriate, and the relationship it establishes duly so. If you have difficulty grasping that, I might recommend imagining how you'd feel if the Dean at your daughter's college orientation greeted her as thus.

@Mir,

That may be true in your job and area; it certainly is not true in all jobs, and all parts of the world. Are you honestly asserting that women in general have as much money as men do? Do you think it is a problem that only a minuscule fraction of top leadership positions are held by women? How about corporate CEOs, for example?

And speaking of a misuse of statistics, your point about physical violence is certainly a candidate. First off, let's just assume we are only talking about the developed world, since we can probably agree that there are many parts of the world where spousal violence towards women remains not just commonplace but acceptable. Secondly, including all levels of "violence" as equal is bizarre, to say the least. Is a glass of wine in the face pleasant? No. Is it the same as being beaten? Obviously not. Spousal violence requiring medical treatment is overwhelmingly male on female. Sexual assaults are overwhelmingly male on female. Spousal murders are overwhelmingly male on female.

I'm sure you know these things, so why would you make a post suggesting that female violence towards men is somehow on par with the male violence towards women? What's your point? That the fact that men are far more likely to seriously injure or kill women is somehow counterbalanced by glasses of wine to the face?

And again, this is all pretending that we can ignore the many regions of the world where the oppression of women is gross and overt.

I'm a bit confused in that I think his two comments are fairly equivalent:

"I bet you can't keep the men off of you! Join me! You and I are going to be good friends!"
"I bet you're all the rage with the ladies! Join me! You and I are going to be good friends!"
These are equivalent.

Now I know its the first part that everyone is looking at:
"Hello, friend! You're some kind of gorgeous, aren't you?" vs "Hello, friend! You've got a strong look to you!"
The thing is that for men having a strong look is pretty synonymous with being attractive.

If Ji were a woman I'm curious what would happen. Maybe no one cares, maybe its the exact same thing but reversed, maybe people speculate that female Ji is a lesbian, I don't know but it would be interesting.

@clundgren - "To your first point: easy enough. The current tier set for paladins is a full chest plate for male toons and a bikini on females. That "current advancement" enough for ya?"

Uh, what? I think we have significantly different concepts of what a "bikini" is. If you want to complain about midriff-showing armor (which is the predominant way in which female gear differs from male now when it differs at all), fine. Personally, I love it, and want them to keep having at least some sets that contain it (female player here, just to mention), but I do understand not everyone wants that. But breaking out the "zomg she's in underwear" argument is frankly ridiculous for the example you're giving. And lest we go into the "but that's all female characters get" argument, that's the only tier set for Paladins this expansion with a showing midriff.

Looking through all of the tier sets this expansions on female characters, the midriff-showing ones are way outnumbered by the fully-covering ones, with most classes not even having any. The absolute closest you come to "not having a choice" about midriff-showing sets is with Druids, who have 2/3 tier sets like that, but even there they're little strips along the side rather than an actual showing midriff that is easily made unnoticeable by a shirt underneath.

WoW certainly hasn't had anywhere near a perfect track record for female armor, and I agree that it's still not perfect (I'm all for a "revealing mode" toggle for both genders), but they have made significant progress in that regard over the past two expansions. Between the ability to transmog towards really any kind of look you want, and the ability to just put on a shirt to cover what little skin is actually showing on that set (which everyone seems to forget is an option while making these arguments, instead skipping to "I'm forced to wear a tabard"), the offense isn't nearly as great as you're making it out to be.

There are issues with sexism in the game. I've witnessed them first hand. I won't even make the claim that the game itself isn't to some degree complicit to that problem (although I wouldn't put the majority of the blame on Blizzard). But this kind of knee-jerk hyperbole hurts the cause to address said sexism more than it helps, because people get tired of hearing that the sky is falling, and wind up shrugging the whole thing off as an overreaction.