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  • weisheng
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Arcane Brilliance: Mages hate Warlocks, and then Warlocks drain our hate and kill us with it. {WoW}

Mar 15th 2008 2:56PM Haha this was funny :) they want water let's drown them in our unending tears! There was so much warlock QQ over the life tap nerf until Blizz decided to reverse it citing the lame excuse that warlocks were no longer overrepresented in arenas after looking at ONE MONTH's worth of stats. Even as a mage, I actually reluctantly didn't agree with the nerf, even though I envy them not having to farm gold to buy a huge stockpile of mana pots to chug down during boss fights.

And now that mages are QQing (justifiably imo) over how broken our class is and how 2.4 brings absolutely no improvements to us, warlocks are trying to drown us out and silence us because they know how Blizz works. It'll come full circle sooner or later and they're going to nerf either warlock or hunter DPS in some way. It's inevitable. I don't agree with this approach though, they should be buffing mages rather than nerfing other classes. Let's see what WoTLK brings, but I suspect what Kalgan said in the forums are just empty words designed to stave off a mage riot.

Blood Pact: Warlocks are red, mages are blue {WoW}

Mar 15th 2008 2:45PM You raised quite a few pertinent points there with regards to PvP, every class should have one or two counter classes but mages are simply countered by every damn class (even warrior if they have a healer with them). Shammies come out, purge every damn buff off and shock us into oblivion while I can't understand the rationale behind including a dispel effect to Arcane Shot and removing the hunter deadzone. As if The Beast Within wasn't enough! Hopefully, the reduction of Spellsteal's mana cost with 2.4 will be sufficient to allow us to spam it reasonably to remove buffs from the enemy.

In any case, I have no hate for warlock players themselves, why should we they're fellow gamers and friends :) Most mage QQ is directed towards class abilities and the broken game mechanics that Blizz doesn't seem to want to fix anytime soon.

Blood Pact: Warlocks are red, mages are blue {WoW}

Mar 15th 2008 2:38PM Having said what I said, personally I still really enjoy the mechanics of the mage class in having to manage multiple cooldowns during a fight. We do need some attention on both PvE and PvP fronts but I'm not going to reroll simply because I enjoy playing a mage. These periods of over/underpowered-ness seem to come in cycles, it will come full circle eventually. I just wish Blizzard would buff classes instead of nerfing others, I wouldn't want to see warlock viability in raids diminished because they're part of the team and we need all the DPS we can get in boss fights.

Blood Pact: Warlocks are red, mages are blue {WoW}

Mar 15th 2008 2:30PM That said, I do miss the days when things were simpler with just battlegrounds and each class had its own overpowered ability. Even if you were instantly killed, you could quite easily res and run back almost immediately :) Obviously, I don't miss the old honour system but now to survive in PvP, even battlegrounds and world PvP, are dependant on having arena gear. It's sad how PvP, which was meant to be a casual and fun pursuit you could do at your own time unlike raiding, is moving towards becoming an e-sport and overly competitive.

Blood Pact: Warlocks are red, mages are blue {WoW}

Mar 15th 2008 2:26PM Azrof, you're right time makes a difference and that's also partly why mages struggle in arena because their main damage spell requires cast time. It does take an inordinate amount of skill and reaction time to actually get burst damage off as a mage compared to some other classes since we can't kite. I myself really struggle to get any damage off in the chaos that is arena and hats off to those mages who actually manage to get into high brackets. One thing I've noticed on my server though is most of the mages who are in high brackets are in high-end raiding guilds, so they started off with a gear advantage by having T5/T6 in the lower brackets and are able to swap those out for S3 by the time they get into the higher brackets.

You're right, 8k PoM/Pyros used to be possible and there was also the ignite DoTs that would proc when it crit haha! Unfortunately, the main thrust of damage from PoM/Pyro comes from having a big crit and then proccing ignite and this has been largely negated by resilience. In fact, I laugh at arcane mages who PoM/Pyro me now in battlegrounds because with high resilience and ice barrier, I hardly take any damage from a non-crit pyro.

Post-BC, the only way for a mage to get burst damage is to use shatter when the enemy is frost novaed, either with a Icy Veins-hasted frostbolt/ice lance combo or repeated ice lances. This combo is very difficult to pull off since most players trinket out or dispel nova almost immediately and some are even immune to it - Cloak of Shadows, The Beast Within :( Once the nova is removed, we basically output very little burst damage as our main nuke, frostbolt, is easily interrupted either by attacks or simply having a pet constantly on us.

Blood Pact: Warlocks are red, mages are blue {WoW}

Mar 15th 2008 1:47AM Also technically both lock and mage T5 are red :P

Blood Pact: Warlocks are red, mages are blue {WoW}

Mar 15th 2008 1:41AM @Azrof

Just like locks have to respec for PvP and PvE, so do mages. Arcane and fire are simply not viable in PvP - PoM/pyro is useless thanks to resilience and fire mages have very poor survivability. Even as a frost mage, I have to respec constantly between PvP and PvE. We need Improved Counterspell from the arcane tree for PvP (it's the only way we can even remotely attempt to kill a resto druid) and we have to go deeper into the frost tree in PvE for threat and mana efficiency talents. Most raiding mages are deep fire and they also have to respec when doing arena. Mages are not as versatile as you purport them to be.

And I doubt tagging a creature is the most important aspect to class balance. Please don't even begin to compare grinding on a warlock and grinding on a mage. With life tap and drain life, locks don't even have to sit for a drink. Mages go oom after several pulls and need constant downtime to replenish mana.

As for your point on DoTs, I think you should appreciate the fact that a warlock continues to do damage even when he's dead in PvP and can sometimes even deal the killing blow in arena even after going down. So the warlock's team does in fact benefit even after he has died. Not to mention they're instant casts that allow you to use LoS as an effective defence. LoS effectively kills mages.

I agree that polymorph is a very powerful form of CC in PvE, but I don't think any other class would want a CC that breaks on damage and heals the enemy to full health in PvP. Not to mention its duration in PvP is the same as that of fear, which incidentally doesn't break on damage, and is also subject to diminishing returns. Ice block removes all DoTs but you can reapply all those DoTs after it expires and the Hypothermia debuff allows your DoTs to do considerable damage then as the mage cannot ice block again immediately after. Ice block is not as powerful as you think it is, it merely delays the inevitable. And it's not an invulnerable ability either, priests are able to mass dispel it.

And a warlock's ability to "tank" certain encounters is just mind-boggling from a mage's perspective. I think Blizz created the Krosh encounter so that they'd have an example where mages could "tank".

Blood Pact: Warlocks are red, mages are blue {WoW}

Mar 15th 2008 1:17AM Obviously many of the points here smack of bias towards warlocks without considering the mage's point of view. While I agree that rogues should be tops for single-target damage, why should mages accept that we're no longer "king of the DPS hill"? Even with the removal of the coefficient nerfs, mages still lag consistently behind warlocks and hunters. Why should this be acceptable at all? Each class brings different utility and synergies to the raid, but warlock, hunter and mage DPS should at least be comparable assuming equal skill. Each class brings unique benefits to a party or raid, which is what defines each class, but DPS viability should be separate from utility for pure DPS classes (we can't do anything else besides DPS).

Not to mention mages don't have an instant aggro dump like warlocks or hunters, taking time for invisibility to take effect and then removing it is a silly way of dumping aggro and takes up valuable time that could be used for DPS. In addition, mages have poor mana efficiency and have to chug down huge numbers of pots during a boss fight while warlocks can use life tap and then get healed but mana-efficient healers. In addition, life tap is instant cast while evocation is a channelled spell that takes up DPS time as well. Warlocks are able to juggle health and mana infinitely better than mages during boss fights, I'm never able to use a healthstone or health pot (unless in urgent circumstances) as it screws with my mana gem/mana pot cooldown which in turn screws my DPS if I go oom.

And the mage's reputation as an AoE king is now a joke, warlocks can achieve similar AoE damage by spamming seed of corruption and benefiting from mages doing all the hard work. It's also an invaluable PvP tool in battlegrounds where enemy players are clumped together and taking damage. Mage AoE is now a joke in battlegrounds - flamestrike is useless, blizzard is interruptible and we die before we get off 2 ticks of arcane explosion.

I hope you'll also acknowledge that 8% representation at the higher brackets in arena 2v2 can be safely deemed "failure". In 5v5, the warlock is less of an issue but they can single-handedly destroy mages in 2v2 or 3v3. Mages are simply broken when it comes to arena, warlocks and hunters have instant casts and CC abilities that allow them to kite while doing damage. Put a pet on a mage and you're guaranteed he'll never be able to get a frostbolt off. And just so you know, shadowstep rogues murder mages just as they do warlocks. Warriors are manageable 1v1, but with a healer by their side they're virtually indestructible.

V'Ming thinks mages have been QQing disproportionately but I'm not sure what was so proportionate about warlock QQ over the proposed life tap nerf, what with multiple posts here at WOW Insider on that. I haven't seen any posts here that have raised the legitimate problems that mages face, instead you post an entry that tells mages not to QQ. If you actually read the mage forums carefully, most of the posts are well thought out comments on the problems we face and not mindless QQs. Nowadays, all you find there is resignation to our fate. The devs are paying no attention to the difficulties our class face and if they are, they're not communicating with the mage community to let us know that they're at least keeping them in view. While Kalgan was happy enough to give warlocks a sneak peek into their future "blink" ability, all he could tell us was we'll be getting new abilities in the expansion. Surprise, surprise isn't every class going to get new abilities. We shouldn't be surprised there aren't any specifics, all mages will be getting are new ranks of food/water and new portals.

WoW maps past show present {WoW}

Mar 3rd 2008 10:07PM Grim Batol! And Hyjal too.

Blood Pact: Locks tapped out {WoW}

Feb 26th 2008 9:30AM Some of the points presented in the article with regards to the impact of this change in PvE aren't very compelling.

Life tap is an instant cast, how much dps would you have lost in that split second? Evocation is a channelled spell that takes up far more time than life tap.

In terms of itemisation, Blizzard would perhaps need to revise the stats on warlock tier gear in light of this change and boost intellect. Spirit and mp5 are non-existent for mages and I don't see both stats playing a very big role for warlocks either. In any case, I believe most warlocks bid for non-class specific caster gear anyway and their decision is mostly governed by the spell damage on the gear not the stats. So it's not as if mages and shadow priests are going to see a sudden influx of warlock bids on caster gear. The usual deciding factor is the crit/hit on the gear, depending on the lock's spec.

"Ohnoes" abilities are generally only needed if you're either pulling aggro or taking periodic damage from a boss. While dps shouldn't be pulling aggro in encounters, warlocks have an instant aggro dump in soulshatter unlike mages, where invisibility has to be used in anticipation and is virtually useless if a mob starts pounding on you. In addition, it takes 5 seconds to take effect which counts as lost time for dps.

It's true shields help mitigate damage but don't forget they also cost mana to cast. In addition, mana shield expends even more mana for fire/arcane mages. Even as a frost mage, I generally don't cast shields to conserve mana if I'm confident I can be healed through periodic damage. So it's still a tradeoff between health and mana, why shouldn't it be the same for warlocks?

Blink is useless in raid encounters and currently uses an inordinate amount of mana. It's true warlocks have no equivalent to ice block but mages generally have far lower health and have no way of regaining it.