Jun 27th 2010 9:08PM You can conquer a kingdom without willfully defiling it. The Forsaken have bigger fish to fry than defiling the ruins for no real reason. The only thing that would be considered defilement is the fact that they seem to be using the canals in the ruins to store plague slime, but it's possible (and probable) that it was the Scourge who did that.
Jun 27th 2010 3:49PM I think that'd indicative of apathy more than respect.
Jun 27th 2010 1:35PM "Second, the alliance seems to think that the forsaken are alot worse than they are. Afterall, they did build a monument to king terenas."
We actually don't know who built that tomb.
Evidence seems to suggest that it was the Alliance that put it there, actually.
Terenas was cremated by the Alliance and the ashes were held by the Knights of the Silver Hand. The urn was taken by Arthas and the remains were uncerimoniously dumped out in Andorhal.
Hence, the remains couldn't possibly be at the tomb, and there's no way the Forsaken could've gotten their hands on them. My guess is that the Alliance put up the tomb at the same point in time they retrieved Terenas' body and gave him a funeral, intending to inter the remains there but never got the opportunity because Arthas killed them and took the urn.
Jun 27th 2010 3:17AM The Forsaken were never betrayed and scorned by their allies. It was they who betrayed and killed the remaining Alliance forces in Lordaeron themselves.
In addition, they seem to enjoy their undeath. At the very least, while they hate the Scourge, they honestly have surprisingly little venom for Arthas. Most of that venom seems reserved for the Alliance, for no real reason other than they're in the way.
Jun 27th 2010 2:11AM "Umm... yeah 'coz most humans are in the Alliance. Not because of the Alliance as a political entity. It has more to do with hating humans in general."
So they hate the humans for Arthas? What exactly is the difference? They used to be humans from Lordaeron, shouldn't they be blaming themselves for Arthas as well?
Unless....*gasp* they don't consider themselves citizens of Lordaeron!
"The Forsaken joined the Horde because they're beset by enemies from all-side. The Alliance included. In this "conquest" thing you're talking about, they don't mean the land, they meant the living humans."
They killed the last remnant of Alliance forces themselves when they betrayed Garithos. The only remaining Alliance forces in Lordaeron were a small camp dedicated to fighting the SCOURGE and Hillsbrad, which never attacked the Forsaken in any fashion.
"So do the Blood Elves, so they're no longer citizens of Quel'Thalas? False logic."
Really? Seems to me that they revere the same politicians, use the same symbolism, the same language, CALL themselves Quel'thalas, and consider their identity to be formed by Quel'thalas.
In other words, their relationship with Quel'thalas is the exact opposite of the Forsaken's relationship with Lordaeron.
"Well maybe if you read more about the lore outside of the game you would know that the Forsaken still fondly remembered Terenas as a great and honorable King."
I'm very familiar with the lore outside the game, and you just outright lied. Want proof? Terenas' tomb is unkempt, covered in trash and dirt and completely ignored by the Forsaken.
The Forsaken cry out "For Sylvanas!" and "Dark Lady watch over you." They say nothing about Terenas.
If they revered Lordaeron to the extent that you claim that they do, then why do they wage war on Terenas' people? Why have they dedicated themselves to destroying Terenas' allies and friends?
In short, you're full of crap.
"Since the beginning of WoW, when all the human survivors of Lordaeron fled to the Stormwind and went, "Please, help us retake Lordaeron!"
Yeah, remember that thing that didn't happen that you claim did? Me neither.
Jun 27th 2010 12:36AM The people of Stormwind and the people of Lordaeron were closer than any other two nations in the game. Probably even closer than Ironforge and Gnomeregan.
When Stormwind fell in the first war, Lordaeron took in the survivors. Varian was like a second son to Terenas, and was Arthas' only real friend.
When Lordaeron fell in the third war, the same thing happened; Lordaeron's survivors fled south to the protection of Stormwind in a mirror of the first war.
Considering many families from Stormwind chose to stay in Lordaeron after the second war ended, their populations were already extremely mixed. After the Third War, you might as well call Stormwind "Lordaewind" because that's exactly what it is; the people of both kingdoms coming together as one.
Varian has ever right to refer to the Kingdom as the Humans, because that's what it was: a human kingdom. Sylvanas even acknowledges that it's an Alliance kingdom in her conversations with Garithos and Varimathras.
The Forasken are their own faction, their name appropriate because not only do they consider themselves "forsaken," but they themselves have also forsaken everything, the light, their nation, and their allies.
The Forsaken are not the people of Lordaeron, and they have never pretended to be or held delusions that they are.
They can accept it, why can't you?
Jun 26th 2010 11:40PM They do blame the Alliance for Arthas. In "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King" Sylvanas' primary motivation against the Alliance is that they're made up of the humans who spawned Arthas.
In addition, there's no evidence that the Forsaken hate the Alliance for "trying to annex Lordaeron." In fact, in the Horde quest "Prove your worth," a Forsaken questgiver refers to what they do in Lordaeron as "conquest."
Your claim that the Cult of the Damned wants the land for the Scourge and not as citizens of Lordaeron is a silly one. The Forsaken don't want the land for themselves as Citizens of Lordaeron either, they want it as Forsaken.
I would ask this: If the Forsaken consider themselves citizens of Lordaeron, why isn't there any evidence or instances of them claiming such? They have a new emblem, new affiliations, new attitudes, new culture, and even a new language.
The Alliance, meanwhile, flies the Lordaeron banner everywhere, have the battlecry "For Lordaeron!" and assault Icecrown Citadel bearing the banner of Lordaeron.
Lordaeron is arguably the most critical nation in creating the Alliances identity as a whole. Lordaeron plays no part in shaping who the Forsaken are or their sense of self.
So, no, they don't consider themselves citizens of Lordaeron and chances are they would punch you in the face if you tried to tell them they were.
Jun 26th 2010 10:45PM I have a question for all the "Lordaeron rightfully belongs to the Forsaken" people.
If that's the case, why do the Forsaken blame the Alliance for Arthas and for the Scarlet Crusade? Both of those are products of Lordaeron.
Furthermore, why isn't anyone arguing that the Cult of the Damned has the right to Lordaeron? They're in the exact same situation as the Forsaken.
Dec 31st 2009 3:07PM Cenarius wasn't a threat to the Orcs at all, he wanted the Orcs to stop cutting down his cousins and get off his land. The Orcs were the invaders; there's a reason that their WC3 campaign is called "The invasion of Kalimdor."
Dec 31st 2009 3:06PM "The Horde of Lordaeron (Forsaken and blood elves) are closely allied with each other, due to being former allies and having both been betrayed by the Alliance in some capacity. This has alwasy been reflected in-game, even in their starting reputations.
I take issue with this statement. The Forsaken have never been betrayed by the Alliance. Quite the opposite in fact, in WC3 it is them who betray Garithos and his men. Yeah, Garithos was a massive jerk but he still held up his end of the bargain, and he got backstabbed for it.
As for the Blood Elves, the faction of Blood Elves that is part of the Horde was never "betrayed" by the Alliance. It is Kael'thas and his men who suffered under Garithos, and the Horde is perfectly happy to kill them alongside the Alliance in Outland.
As for the Alliances unity, I think it's quite strong, as reflected in Northrend. Every Alliance member race is there in force, united under Stormwind.