Feb 14th 2009 8:44PM I think you kind of missed the point with a lot of this to be honest.
Where dual specs helps me is that I played ret pally for 2 years but when I set up my own guild I had to spec holy just so we could heroic and then as we got bigger so we can raid. My holy gear is now better than my dps stuff.
But I'd rather dps and ret at the moment is a very useful dps. But I'm often needed to be a healer for our Naxx or EoE raids. Sometimes we are short dps but more often we are short healers. So I pretty much stay holy as I'm not keen on paying 100g just so I can help out on a heroic as dps for an hour or so I can do my dailies quicker (100g to earn 100g in dailies....).
You can talk about it making it easier to pve and pvp and you can talk about all the other rubbish. The main benefit of dual specs for hybrids is that it will reduce the tank and healer shortage because people are more willing to gear up and take those specs if it's not expensive to go back to dps.
Because at the end of the day, no matter what anyone here says, dps is easier and much more fun than tanking or healing for 90% of players. It's harsh but it's true. Wait until 3 months after the patch and I guarantee the healer/tank shortage will disappear due to this change. Don't try to dress it up as anything else please as you will be talking rubbish.
Jan 16th 2009 9:26AM I'm probably just agreeing with all the hybrids here.
I was a ret pala for 2 years (before the buff when every 14 year old who wanted to be 'leet suddenly rolled ret) and had no interest in healing or tanking. I actually rolled a warrior alt to be the tank, my main was ret ftw.
Since I started my own guild I had to respec holy as we have the same shortages everyone else does. Now I enjoy healing much more than I thought I would but it does get a bit boring. If it didn't cost 100g to spec ret and back I'd happily run some heroics or raids where I'm just smashing mobs faces in rather than healbotting around the place, especially when I'm leading a raid. Just a break now and then from the monotony of healing would be cool....but not so cool I want to spend 1000g a week switching between the two.
Sure, some, mabye most healers chose healing because they love the role. But I think there are a lot of us healing who only do it for the good of our guild or our mates, or even just to get a spot on a raid.
With out us 'involuntary healers' there realms would face an even greater shortage and much less instancing and raiding could be done. So I don't think we are asking to much to be able to switch into the role when needed and switch back to our preferred spec without having to pay such a big penalty.
If there were surplus healers and tanks in WoW and it was dps in short supply then my argument would be rubbish, but if anyone can find me a realm where that is the case I'll transfer there so fast my armour would melt.
Jan 16th 2009 5:09AM I run an adults only guild.
One of the reasons we set it up was because we were sick of being told off by guild officers because we managed to upset teenagers in the guild or used the odd swear word in guild chat. We had grown sick of childish behaviour and put a few kids back in their place when they threw a tantrum or behaved like a 5 year old. After one 14 year old girl who had been obnoxious left the guild in a hissy fit after I told her she'd get no more help from me until she grew up there was a confrontation between me and an officer with a fairly unhealthy tendency to spend a lot of time with the young girls in the guild. I ended up being gkicked and a large chunk of us left enmass to form our adult guild.
We have loved the freedom and lack of drama in our new guild and it's grown remarkably fast over the last 6 weeks despite our 'adults only' recruiting requirement.
Sure some under 18s have slipped through, some of them we knew were under age but we gave them a chance. A couple are fine but unfortunately the only issues we've had with anyone has been with the kids and we've had to ask a couple of them to leave. I've still got half a dozen or so that probably won't last but we are giving them a try. It isn't easy to police the age restrictions and any adults only realm will have these problems, but it's not impossible and is worth the effort.
People always throw up the fact that not all 18+ people are mature and not all under 18s are immature and that's true but as a general rule it's fairly accurate in my view.
It's not that we hate under 18s. We are that age once and we wish them well playing WoW. But it's the subtle things that make a difference.
Younger players are less patient. They tend to always be pushing things 'gogogogo' in heroics or raids and get bored easily and start whining. Older players are happier to have things explained and sorted before the pull and don't start annoying the tanks or raid leader to hurry up.
Younger players have shorter attention spans. Linked to the point above, they'll be hardcore into raiding then suddenly after getting geared they want to pvp and aren't available to help others. If they don't get what they want straight away they'll leave groups or go do something else.
Younger players because they are in the education system have an expectation to be taught and given all the information they need by adults. They don't do their own research or look things up themselves and fill guild or raid chat with questions about items, loot etc that they could quite easily look up themselves. They haven't gained the skills to be self reliant when it comes to learning their class or how to play the game.
Younger players lack the maturity to cope when things go wrong and rather than laugh about it tend to become upset and disruptive.
Basically they act like kids. And don't get me wrong, that's how kids should act as they are in their formative years and learning the skills you need in life. However, they aren't my/our kids and we don't think it's our job to be their parents or teachers. We'd rather deal with fully formed people, even with flaws, than put up with kids. It's why kids aren't allowed in pubs and bars. As customers of those establishments we don't want to have to modify our behaviour because the kids are around.
So yeah, adult only guilds would have a very high level of demand from adult players and I hope Blizz can find a way to do it.
Jan 11th 2009 2:36AM talk about eating humble pie....
look I stick to the comments I made above but a raid experience tonight has given me another perspective.
As background, I was kicked from the last guild for the reasons stated above. All my friends, and new ones I made in the guild came with me and for that I'm grateful to them.
I suggested we join another raiding guild but they were keen for me to set one up so we could run it ourselves and I went for it. We started with 8 members and as they were all the gang I made them all officers. Along the way I've demoted one as he never plays and another was encouraged to leave as they had tagged on with us due to an infatuation with my 2ic which inevitably went pear shaped and she missed a number of raids and spent most of her time on her alt with her other friends.
So we started recruiting. I have 7 officers now. One is my wife (in charge of guild banking), my 2ic who is an ingame friend, 3 friends from the orginal guild (2 are brothers), a good mate of our 2ic and a guy we recruited who fitted in so well and helped out a lot in raids.
Its been going well, we have 45 members and are clearing the 10 man content before going to 25 when more people gear up. I've tended to run the raids but have tried to have the other officers participate more so that the learn, act as officers and take the burden off me (I got a job and a life after all).
But my account got hacked on Friday and I had to have my 2ic and one of the officers run our weekend raids.
In short .....a disaster.
I watched from my wife's screen and listened on vent. The 'raid leader' is a tank and he's become lazy due to being better geared than everyone else. He didn't explain anything well at all and didn't maintain aggro like he should have. He was just plain lazy and crap. The 2ic (who is best mates with him and nominated him to lead the raid) kept butting in and confusing things. One of the other officers kept afk'ing for 10+ minutes and another one, the OT kept messing up despite knowing the fights well.
2 of the younger members of the raid started acting up and criticising the tanks after a number of stupid wipes. One of them has history with the tank (an arena team gone wrong) and both of them started acting like kids. After another stupid wipe on an easy boss the younger guys started calling people noobs, the 2ic had words and they both logged off. Later one of the healers whispered me and said he's leaving because he doesn't want to spend 5+ hours clearing 4 bosses in Naxx.
So I talked him into giving us another chance and gave some blunt feedback to the officers in vent (just us) and hopefully now I'm back I can fix things.
But you know what? I'm not going to demote or kick any of the officers even though they were at fault. They didn't prepare, they were arrogant and didn't play well, they were offensive in just going afk for 10 minutes at a time during a raid and they brought out personal vendettas to mistreat 2 junior members (who are not blameless either). By rights I should demote 2 of them and not let the others lead raids until they lift their game.
But I'm not going to do that am I? I'll probably lose 3 guildies in the coming days because I won't do what is right.
I'm not going to insist I lead all raids just to keep a healer and if the bad blood between the officers and the 2 members continues it will be them that go and not the officers. As I said above, I blame the officers for a piss poor performance and I think much of the blame for our first crap raid is down to them. But what I will do is try to change and improve them. I won't sacrifice them for anyone else.
Why? Because they stuck by me and I've known them longer than the other members. I'm going to put personal connections to my small clique ahead of the good of the guild.
Now in my head I know that's bullshit. The other guys aren't to blame and I'm favouring friends before the overall good of the guild. And my wife shouldn't really be an officer as she just participates, is our lead enchanter, and managed the guild bank. It's blatant favouritism and it's wrong...but she's my wife....and they are my friends. I like our new members but I haven't known them as long or developed the same connections.
So I'm sure people will eventually leave our guild and in the long run it will be for the benefit of my friends how I run the guild, not the guild. But I at least am aware of it and will do my best to reduce it's impact.
So I'm a crap GM but I bet I'm just the same as 90% of the rest out there. I just hope I'm more honest about it.
But, to summarise, at the end of the day, a guild is all about a small core of friends and human nature means it always will be no matter what anyone says.
If you aren't a member of the core, sooner or later you will leave and maybe like me set up your own core. But to pretend that any online grouping like a guild can always be fair, balanced, democratic and for the greater good is wrong and living in fantasy land.
Jan 11th 2009 1:27AM It's just a bloody guild. Why do people worry so much? I know wow is like crack and we want to hang with people in the comfort zone but why all this angst? It's clear the guild now belongs to the new guy and he's running it his way. It might be rubbish but why stay?
I blame these stupid titles like 'class leader' or 'raid leader' that people copied from the professional guilds like Nihilum or SKS. Mate, being the 'paladin class leader' means nothing. It's a title given to you to make you feel better but at the end of the day you are nothing to the guild. The pallies don't care who is their 'class leader' and the fact you have no input means you aren't really an officer.
If you really were officer material you would have quit by now, set up your own guild with your mates from the old guild and started running things your way. All this angst is just pathetic.
I've been in 3 guilds now. My first was a levelling guild and I rose to 2ic before all the other officers and a number of players started complaining to me that we seemed to be raiding solely for the benefit of the GM, her husband, his brother and 2 other original members. I agreed, confronted them in an officer meeting and when they didn't agree to change we all left and went to another guild. The next guild was massive and we made our own way but when my little bunch of chums and I started out gearing the officers (another original group of friends) and asked to lead our own raids rather than be 2nd reserve backups to the main ones, I got kicked and my little faction left.
Once bitten, twice shy, and now we run our own raiding guild and have recruited 40 players who enjoy our style and are now clearing content. We've never been happier. Only some of the original group are officers (most aren't suited) and a couple of people outside the original group are officers as well as they showed the skills needed and all have a major say in how we do things.
It's early days and I'm sure we'll have drama, hissy fits and all the usual stuff. But if it screws up we can say it was our fault and nobody elses. And we won't be whining to wowinsider about it either.
Whining about some dude ruining your guild is pathetic. Just prove you are an 'officer' (and I hate that term as I am an army officer and a wow guild officer sounds so much more impressive than it is) and do something for yourself. Your guild is now the new GMs play thing. If you don't like it, then sod off and make your own. Vent and website hosting are dirt cheap and it's easy to recruit, trust me on that.
Jan 11th 2009 1:02AM Had to laugh. Had to reply.
I'm a post graduate trained economist who took the cowards option and forsook academia for the high paying but soul destroying finance sector.
But I still retain my training. And when I first started WoW I actually thought I could use my skills to make a fortune on the AH by simply collecting and analysing demand and supply data yada yada yada.
I hope this guy isn't serious as it took me about 2 hours to work out no useful empirical analysis of WoW pricing can be done nor can it be useful in game or out. Essentially there are at least 5 flaws:
1. Gold buyers and sellers distort the market, can't be traced and can't be analysed for their impact as people use external shocks (like using their credit card to buy purchasing power, which you can't do irl)
2. The fact people can send money to an from alts distorts pricing on gear below maximum level
3. It's only game money and whilst it takes time to 'earn' like real money, people's emotional responses to prices and 'wages' are far from reflective of real life
4. The majority of players are kids who don't have the sophistication to understand supply and demand or the experience to equate time with reward.
5. Participants in the 'WoW' economy can opt in (start playing) or opt out (stop playing) at any time due to non-wow economy factors. In real life you can't just decide you don't want to play 'eating' or 'having clothes' because you are bored.
But hey, if some professor wants to try modelling game theory and micro economics on a popular computer game and some faculty is stupid enough to pay for it, good luck to him :)
Jan 6th 2009 12:49AM I'm echoing some comments above an apologise for it but reading the article, the feedback and my own experience I think this is simply an example of why most guilds will struggle to overcome these issues and that is just something that happens despite everyone's good intentions.
As background, I've been in 2 large guilds before setting up my own. In the first I rose from noob leveller to 2ic before it became apparent (in my view) that the guild was all about gearing up the 'family' who ran it (husband, wife, husband's brother and a small circle of favourites). Treacherously I rounded up all the non family officers and put it to the leaders that the way they were favouring themselves was not acceptable to us and they either changed or we left.....no prizes for guessing that we left. So the 10 of us joined a large raiding guild and it was great for a while. We were geared up in kara, we raided much of the TBC content and happily slotted in as ordinary guildies subservient to the imba geared officers of the guild. But after WOTLK my little group and some new friends levelled faster than the officers, started running hcs and did our own Naxx-10 run (2 bosses only, our gear sucked). The officers who'd ruled the guild due to being so much better geared started treating members of our group like crap and instigated a confrontation that (and this is just my view, it's not objective) forced me to stand up to them and I was immediately gkicked.
Fortunately 20 members of the guild - most of the original 10 plus some new people we'd befriended - gquit within hours and we decided to set up our own guild which is now progressing happily through WOTLK content and has grown to 60 members.
Now this is the bit where I began to understand guilds. I'm GM and I made most of my long term loyal friends officers in the early days as a thank you for supporting me. It was all fine and dandy as we agreed on guild principles and how we would raid. In the early days we did heroics together, pugged together, did pug raids together etc and we got some imba gear. In the meantime we recruited a large number of generally likeminded people.
The problem has arisen that a number of officers are now not putting in the effort expected as an officer. Also, new members have geared up faster than the original gang. Now, instead of doing Naxx-10 with our little clique, I'm running raids with those who put in the time and have better gear than original members. I won't pretend I don't favour my mates but I do try to keep a balance. But as time goes on I can see the conflict.
Basically, any guild starts as a small collection of mates who get on well and enjoy playing together. Then they invite other people and it gets complicated because they want progress but they don't want to abandon their mates. No matter how good the intentions at the start, a guild is about the founding clique and unless the leaders are very enlightend (and I hope I am) it will end it tears as new people get screwed over.
I think your tank has simply become a victim of this syndrome. The guild loved you when the officers were imba and you could help them progress. Now you are simply taking a raiding spot from a cherished friend and human nature means the friend comes first. It's not your fault and they are just doing what comes naturally.
I learnt the hard way, never join an established guild unless you are prepared to take a subordinate role.
Given your drive and commitment, all I can suggest is you set up your own guild and try your best to avoid the standard pitfalls. Sure your ability to view content will be set back a bit and running a guild and keeping everyone happy is a lot of work, but as a ray of light, my new guild has almost cleared just as much content as the huge old one and has a steady stream of members from the old guilg joining us.
Your guild officers are just being human. They will favour their mates and there is nothing you can do to fix it. You either join a smaller guild in need of a feral tank or you bite the bullet and go out on your own. It really is the only way ]you can raid now. But don't leave with bitterness as like me you will find this base human trait exists in all groups and guild and it's hard to fight it, even if you are the beneficiary.
Jan 5th 2009 12:41AM Chris:
I was talking about casting those spells at the start of the fight. Between 'everybody is ready, let's go' to actually pulling I need a short period of time to cast 3 spells. They need to be up for much of the fight. If I cast the first 2 and the tank doesn't pull for 30 seconds they run out. I can't cast the 3rd until he's about to pull or I will pull. I'm talking 10 seconds at the start of the fight. If I don't get them up my healing is less effective by a large factor and on heavy hitting bosses that can be enough. Sure, not needed on a heroic trash pull, but on most major fights if I don't have it up we will struggle all for the sake of waiting 10 seconds after saying 'right, pulling'...
Mate, your raid leader and GM are/were cocks. I'm sorry if you've been sidelined because of low dps by people who don't understand your class. You are well out of it. Like I said, I banned the bloody dps meters from my guild's raids because they never tell the whole story and discourage people from doing the right thing to down a boss for the sake of knob measuring. You are well out of those guilds if that's their measure. Now I'm not saying low dps is always down to that, sometimes people need help and advice to learn to dps better but a raw number is a stupid way to do it. If you were in the EU and on my server I'd take you in :)
Mate, you make it sound so hard. So you are telling me that clicking a different button every 3 seconds, watching your threat and moving every now and then is hard? Seriously mate, it's not. I've done it on a ret paladin for 2 years (now there was sucky dps) and I somehow managed to do all those things and still get out respectable dps. My wife plays mage, rogue and priest and it's the priest she finds hardest. Otherwise, she just clicks stuff, stops when her threat is high and moves if she sees red around her character face and her health dropping. Mate she's 41, never played computer games before wow and has only played 6 months. She manages quite easily, I suspect you are younger with faster reflexes and lots more experience. If you aren't better than her at managing that then perhaps RTS is more your thing.
I think your philosophy is wrong. On a 25 or 10 man raid (or even a heroic) if your healers are going OOM or the boss is enraging then your gear wasn't good enough. The extra 10% you individually are pumping out by ignoring all the things you SHOULD be doing is not going to make the difference. You are a prime candidate for playing a tank and / or healer. Go level on, raid up to the end of Naxx-10 and then come back to me. I bet you will have changed your mind.
Anyway, off to work now after a nice break. Have fun with this thread, I think it will be epic :)
Jan 4th 2009 8:45PM Gee I wish I was as imba as you sharkeater, your raids and groups obviously never wipe due to you being so pro.
For the rest of us though....
Having gone holy recently after 2 years ret pally for the good of the guild (well I'm GM so it's kinda required when we have a healer shortage) I've noticed 2 things.
1. Despite what you say Mykil, a large proportion of the problems come from dps not doing their job and taking aggro or standing in the wrong spot and taking ticks. Being a single target healer, even with beacon of light I struggle to keep idiot dps alive whilst keeping the tank topped up. What is so hard about watching your aggro, slowing your dps and taking the time to move rather than just clicking your imba damage rotation and ignoring everything else? 10 seconds longer to kill the mob and maybe 30 seconds longer on the boss takes less time than a wipe.
2. Tanks charging in before I can get the protective spells on. I need to cast beacon of light, sacred shield and have a seal up to judge the target to get judgements of the pure. I can do that in 9 seconds with the global cool down. Can't you just bloody wait until they've been cast (especially when I've asked you) before piling in? If the first heal is late and you die then I ain't taking the blame.
That said, I screw up occasionally and it's pretty obvious it was me missing a heal that caused the wipe. I'll confess to that. Just like when I'm tanking on my warrior and I do a dodgy pull or lose aggro because of a misclick I'll come clean. But it's easy to see who made the mistake with tanks and healers. DPS get away with it. As misclicks or failed attacks rarely seem obvious and are unlikely to cause a wipe.
People who play dps should beforehand level a tank and a healer (or respec if a hybrid) and try the roles out. You will then see how hard it is for a tank to position mobs or keep aggro or for a healer to keep everyone up when idiot dps charge in too early or do stupid things.
I blame dps meters. Not only are they woefully inaccurate (funny how they seem to put the person spamming raid chat top of the list) but they discourage team play (like mages decursing, or people freeing others from being wrapped or clearing mobs from the healers) and worst of all encourage tossers to just stand there clicking furiously to top the damage meter without any thought about other aspects of the fight. I've banned them from my guild in my one and only dictator decision.
I think I'm 100% better dps now I've played all 3 roles and I don't think there are better ways to l2p dps out there than playing tank and healer for a while.
Jan 2nd 2009 10:33PM I try not to pug. Just too many tools playing this game. At least in a guild there is some discipline and camaraderie.
But having had to go holy for the good of my guild I agreed to do some pugs during quiet times to gear myself up.
Like some of the earlier correspondents I seem to find that pug members from the uber-hardcore-cleared everything in 2 weeks guilds are the worst.
From trees bragging about how much mana they got and that no cc is required (before I respecced) and when the tank wasn't pulling quick enough starting to pull themselves. To constantly pulling aggro and wiping out my less than impressive mana pull and blaming me and many more examples already written about above.
My theory is that in these hard core guilds there are about 10 core, really good players. The rest of the guilds are full of try-hards who get pulled up to the lvl213 epics by these good players and never really learn to play their class or work in teams. They then go and pug to show off their shiny epics and criticise other runs.
Basically, good players know they are good and do all the right things in a professional way. The rest of their guilds just think they are good and act all arrogant around others. I won't learn anything by pugging with those tossers so I won't go on any pug with a top-5 raiding guild.
The other key to when the pug will be bad is when the dps or healers keep telling the tank to 'gogogogo' on every pull regardless of mana levels or cds. Without fail a wipe takes longer than spending 10 seconds preparing the pull. Why these dickwads don't know this I'll never know. Must be add.
Got full healing and dps gear now, no more pugs for me for a long time I hope.