Aug 30th 2008 11:07PM Anesthetic Poison? I do not think that a raid would use this as a rogue generates better dps with instant and deadly poison. A hunter just brings this ability at no cost. Rogues' kick has several kinds of monsters that are resistant from shields or other effects, and finally, you have to make your rogue hold back so he has the energy to kick. This means he is doing less damage over all. For you to use either of these abilities would just mean you take a short break from your shot rotation, then return, without any problems of a cycle of CPs, bleeds and haste to keep up, or stacks of poison to babysit.
As far as hunter traps, you're able to double trap... tell me, how can I sap after combat begins? Please also tell me, how many humanoids could rogues sap on raid encounters for trash or bosses? Just because they open it up wont mean we will use it more, almost everyone is too impatient for the rogue to waddle up and risk getting detected. Remember, the combat rogues don't have improved stealth. Trying to sap monsters +3 levels to you is pretty damn hard.
You completely ignored the pet tank part, I guess my point was well placed. As far as what you've begged for trueshot, and how long, doesn't concern me. How long did we have to beg for sap improvements? It used to pull us out of stealth, and it only worked on humanoids, and even then they've made immune humanoids.
Face the facts, you can't just have high melee DPS as a reason to get into a raid, because as high as your DPS is, there is an increased cost in babysitting, fewer buffs, and boss fights where melee enjoy large portions of running around doing nothing.
Aug 30th 2008 10:59PM You probably can't have 2 TotT active on you, My guess is that you'd be limited to one at a time.
Aug 30th 2008 9:17PM So things like being able to remove enrages, stop casting, trap trash(which you must kill to even attack the boss) and aura are nothing no one would be ineterested in?
Pets that blues have said will be able to tank in raids for certain encounters and trash? Thats basically being able to CC two at once in the case of trash. The pet talent revamp is nothing to be excited about hm? Be real, you got some buffs just as much as you got some nerfs.
As far as the other poster saying that I'm being a hypocrit, not really. I'm discussing how it was in BC, and what will take place in TBC. Rogues will be manage sponges once again, I can put money on it.
Aug 30th 2008 9:02PM Also, prep doesn't reset all of those. They've nerfed it repeatedly because of crying like yours... now it just does sprint, shadowstep, vanish, cloak of shadows, premed and evasion.
Double blind doesn't work, double clos doesn't work. As far as our dps goes, ghostwalker(raid designer) has said there wont be a big gap in dps between rogues and the next pure dps class, so much so that a few errors on the rogue's part will make him lose his lead. Mages were doing 8-9k damage in their internal raid test while rogues were at 3k.
These changes were DEFINITELY needed, with the warrior cooldowns changing, the time cuts were needed, have you even considered that pvp is going to be turned on its ear from WoTLK? Hunters getting a jump back attack, warriors refreshing MS with 25% on each hit, chances to execute on every hit regardless of health, them being able to wield a 2 hander in one hand, still block with a shield at the same time, shield bash you, and shield wall. Druids with the new furor can unload in cat form, swap to bear form to let energy regenerate and then go back to cat to unload. Warlocks will be able to transform into a stun resistant melee monster that resets his health to 100% while in the demonic form, returning to his old health after the effect is over.
You really think rogues shouldn't change? I'm sorry you're butthurt, but thats no reason to leave one single class out of the fun an expansion brings in new abilities and tree restructurings.
Aug 30th 2008 8:54PM "Except why bring a mage when you can just bring 5 rogues?"
Lets see... because we don't provide dampen magic or amplify magic. We do not provide raid consumables. Caster crafted gear is traditionally better than rogue crafted gear so its less work in the new raid zones to get the casters to a good starting point. We do not offer good AoE, FoNs is hittting for an average of 500 damage at most.
You don't bring five rogues because you have to deal with AoE trash, and CC heavy trash with sheeps. You also don't bring tons of rogues because blizzard puts in raid auras on bosses that hurt you the more melee you bring. Not only does it cause you to need more healing, but the more healer spots you need the less hybrid dps you have which means fewer raid wide buffs which means less raid DPS overall.
Lets see... Najentus has an aura that bounces between melee and causes a need for us to be manage sponge. The eagle boss in ZA. The whole phase we're pratically useless on with supremus, the whirl wind with leotharis, archimond's airburst takes out the entire melee group, doomfire blocks us from getting back in, while ranged dps (the other three 'pure' classes ) have more places to stand, and do not take a whole group with them on air burst. Bloodboil whirling around and 1 shotting melee if they don't step out when he fel enrages someone... Azgalor, how about his butt? OKAY MELEE! everyone stand over here and kill doomguards... you're contributing! *pat pat* there there... Void reaver? Al'ar (wee! exploded by his flying chicken baby! ) Gruul? (oh gee, someone didn't heal the druid up fast enough, I just ate a hateful strike!) or how about ZA's eagle boss?
Need I go on? Blizzard designs MANY melee unfriendly bosses, with stacking melee you have to stack healers and everyone loses buffs. Melee take more danger in doing their basic role than you do as a mage.
We offer the least utility out of the four pure DPS classes and are the only out of the four who can call themselves melee. We are also the only ones who didn't get nice crafted epics to keep our damage up on the way to BC, outside of a decent belt, while you all had your cloth crafting for kara, and then when you got your vortex and primals, for SSC/TK level. Then HoD crafted gear in black temple. Even being a tailor is easier, your mats drop off of monsters while to be a leatherworker I'd have to skin.
For the risk, difficulty and lack of anything nice for the raid (outside of this coming up) we should have an edge, but remember HEALING is a limiting factor in overpopulation of rogues in a raid.
Aug 30th 2008 8:42PM Dear WowInsider,
We're not actually taking it from hunters, Rogues pushed for misdirect in the TBC beta and made the suggestions for the ability. Blizzard said nothing to the suggestions on the rogue part of the beta forums and then made it a hunter ability.
Its about damn time we get it, hunters are considered a pure class as their only function is dps and their CC is better, as is their ability to raid buff so I do not feel that it is wrong for another "pure" class to have the same utility.
Now whats really nice is that the methods to reduce threat are far and few between in WoTLK, so this will definitely be a powerful incentive to bring some rogues.
Rogue A uses TotT on rogue B, Rogue B uses TotT on rogue c, Rogue C uses TotT on tank.
That means A->B->C->Tank. That means you've got 3 rogue's worth of threat linked to the tank, providing the game is smart enough to keep letting the threat flow like that.
Aug 22nd 2008 3:06AM Ithrandil,
So every spec is magical and perfect for the class?
I guess we should tell druids, shaman, warriors and paladins to stop crying about their non-cookie cutter builds, because they have one that works for pvp and one that works for pve, and that third tree we all got? well, just fuck that third tree.
How stupid can you be, the game isn't what it is today, are you blind to the fact that every other class is seeing new spells and abilities that will radically change how we play? Who does the most DPS and who is the best arena partner?
Everything is getting shuffled, if you think rogues should be left out then you're selfish and butthurt over some corpse camping in booty bay.
Aug 22nd 2008 3:01AM Arkeband,
Don't be silly, every class doing raid DPS has a certain rotation that they have to do. From shadowbolt spam to a fire mage's rotation to keep his crap up, or a hunter just spamming steadyshot between kill commands.
Cookie cutter builds exsist for every class, and despite what you may think, there are some non-obvious challenges to playing a combat rogue in a raid. Not only do we have to be more alert and aware in a raid because of the extra perils that come with being melee, but we also have to time our energy use to get the maximum slice and dice/ rupture up time... rogues who do their job well have to time their energy use so that no energy rots and they also have to choose the right times to use potions or drums in order to get the most benefit... the amazing/outright crazy dps you see from the world's top rogues isn't just mindless sinister striking, its planning.
By the way, what shows you're a dumbass the most?
Raid rogues do not use eviscerate, they use rupture... stop putting so much faith in world of roguecraft, PvP does not equal PvE.
Aug 21st 2008 8:09PM Also nekoken,
I forgot to comment on non-posistional damage.
I'd consider being in range a posistion, and I think shadowstep rogues have a huge advantage over combat in that regard, and last time I checked, shadowstep hemo is a sub build, and is non-posistional.
Aug 21st 2008 8:07PM Nekoken,
Combat rogues are not the choice for almost any arena rogue outside of combat maces and even then it is a small margin.
By putting PvP fillers on the way to the end of the PvE tree they allow combat rogues to better defend themselves against ganking as they level up to 80, and also allow soloists who are not raiding to remain viable in more than one aspect of the game without a respec.
Blizzard has said many times that they intend for every tree to be at least somewhat function, even if they're not the best at the job.
Mutilate and sub are seeing a few PvE talents, and combat some PvP, I think its fairly obvious for most people to see that they're trying to encurage diversity, instead of every rogue respeccing before an arena match and then speccing back to combat for the rest of the week.
Also look at warriors, their DPS as non-optimal pvp specs is going up, and blizzard said this is to help them be less than a free kill out in the world and also to keep playing a tank somewhat fun.
I dunno about you, but when I want fun, I like being able to go have at it with pvp, not fly back to town and respec just to kill something.
Combat in its state today does not do well against any class that can kite, and is only good on other melee classes and to an extent, hunters.
What'll most likely happen is that a full combat build, especially with blade twisting being changed to work on all attacks instead of just yellow, silencing deadly throw becoming combat only and other such things, is that you'll see a more even split among rogue arena specs... in the end, that benefits us all, because each spec is good with a certain class, like mage shatter combos and mutilate, double melee or warlock rogue, every spec will have its place depending on your team makeup.
I'm extremely happy I wont have to respec twice a week, or more if I wanted to run battle grounds.
Hell, if it sucks that bad... there are a lot of combat / assassination hybrids you could use for pure PvE dps, quite a few of them look VERY promising, even if they don't incorperate any of our new lackluster gold star abilities.