Jun 30th 2009 6:36AM A lot of people seem to struggle with this. I am in no way defending either guild but:
Utilizing a spell in game to capitalise on a buff is/has been labelled 'clever use of game mechanics' and while I think that make's it sound completely innocent, I suspect the availability of the buff in such a fight was unintentional and an oversight by the design/QA staff. Technically, you could consider it an exploit but from a software developer's point of view I would label this as an unintended feature. I would say this is similar to the way using a DK or Voidwalker on 3D, in the words of Blizzard "made the fight a lot easier than was intended".
Going out of your way to remove a key element from a fight, completely negating the encounter design, as has happened with Flame Leviathan and now this, seems more intentionally malicious. In my opinion, the Flame Leviathan incident is more of an exploit since literally the whole fight is exploited, but understand that the 'AitD' incident is a lot more high profile and important in the community which is why I suspect there were suspensions. You have to do something about it or it gives the impression that it's ok to do things like this.
Apr 22nd 2009 6:47AM As a followup to my other post, it's week 1 - don't expect to understand all the mechanics of every fight or have a perfectly refined tactic.
We had the same problem with cloth wearers getting 'unlucky' and being 1-2 shot til we noticed the pattern. On subsequent attempts we had a tank taking Sentinels stand in the middle for most of the fight and most fire/fireballs was projected at him.
It might have seemed random at first but it wasn't once you worked out the little things like that which make the encounter much easier.
Apr 22nd 2009 6:38AM RE: epsilon343, the fireballs are not random it seems. She prefers closest targets so at the start, anyone underneath her (in the circle) will get hit by most of the fireballs and after ground and flying into the air I seem to remember she is off in a corner slightly so have a tank or someone who can soak them and move out of fire fight underneath her.
Apr 1st 2009 12:16PM Wow...
I am a successful graduate working in an intense and high profile job and consider my hygiene more than adequate.
Grats on your failed stereotype and assumptions. I was also blown away by the attempt to try and appear a clearly superior intellectual by stating the mass-energy relationship.
I will quote you here:
'hardcore raiders whom "obviously" need more VIRTUAL rewards'
Did you actually read the post? You'll find it's actually the anti-hardcore crowd arguing that they should be getting these VIRTUAL rewards.
I thank god every damn day, that there are still people out there who don't fight for a 'something for nothing' society, demanding silly things like 'I work in a different job from that banker but I still work so I should be paid the same as him omg!'
Apr 1st 2009 8:22AM Sorry but they have a point. Everyone makes the point "I can only get 10 people online, not 25 but I should have the same loot!".
Well how about those who don't have time to get 10 people online?
To you, there are hardcore people and you insult them for having no lives and want to get everything they get without putting in the time.
Well to others, they might not be able to get 10 people. They might only be able to play short periods of time. By your logic, they should make you feel socially unacceptable and there should be end-game solo play rewarding the same level as gear. Why should you have to find groups to play with to see the lore and get the mounts?
So my proposal is, have solo quest/dungeons/gameplay that gives you the same iLvl gear as 10 and 25 mans, cos let's face it, those people raiding 10 mans have no lives and we're sick of those casuals thinking that they deserve better loot than us just because they can get 9 friends together to wtfpwn a boss.
Apr 1st 2009 7:21AM But why do 10-man raiders need gear of the same level?
You can start 10-man Naxx with 5-man Heroic gear.
You can start 10-man Ulduar with 10-man Naxx gear.
I'm guessing you can start 3.2's raid with 10-man Ulduar gear.
Why does gear need to be the same level?
How would encounter balance work? Equal gear would mean a tank has the same health pool and avoidance levels on 10 and 25 man. You have more healers available in 25man so you have to increase damage, but there's only so much you can do this without making it like hatefuls on Patch where the tank would need constant spam healing not to die.
It generally just becomes much harder to tune. At the moment, fights can be tuned with mechanics for 10 man wearing 10man gear to be X difficulty (if you could quantify difficulty) and 25men wearing 25man gear to be X+Y difficulty.
What you are proposing is
10men wearing gear and at Z difficulty.
25men wearing the same gear still at Z difficulty.
You have to introduce new mechanics to deal with more tanks, more healers, you have to increase raid damage on 25man to provide for more healing but because everyone has same stam for example this makes it harder than 10man.
Basically, too much homogenization (as is the theme in WotLK it seems), tuning too difficult leading to even more disparity than at the moment and would just lead to boring raids.
Apr 1st 2009 6:47AM Raids come in 10 (Normal) and 25 (Heroic) man variants.
You can engage bosses in 'hard mode'. In current content, this is only done by leaving drakes alive for Sartharion, making the fight more difficult but rewarding the raid with better loot and title/achievements.
In Ulduar, on both 10 and 25 man, most bosses have these optional ways of making fights harder but giving greater rewards
Apr 1st 2009 6:45AM My input:
I started by running Naxx 10. Grobulus was the only boss that would give any trouble - if you lose a couple of people it becomes very hard to keep up the heal/damage output.
I have been running Naxx 25 for a few months now and Grobulus is a joke BUT other fights pose completely different problems. Patchwerk is a much more intense fight and can still wipe if healers don't pay attention. Thaddius in my opinion is far far harder on 25 and while you can afford deaths in 10 man, 25 is a lot more tightly tuned so there is not as much room for error.
I think a lot of the "Naxx 10 is harder" comes from the fact you often start on 10 man and are still learning it, by the time 25 man comes along, with a little more room for error (as there should be since there is greater number of people to make those errors) you can do it with your eyes shut.
We've never been hardcore but when a friend recently hit 80 on his first character (Hunter) we went to Naxx 10 (he had never been before) and without trying picked up Shocking, Safety Dance (for those who didn't have it) and very nearly got Undying. It is simply a lot easier than 25 man.
That said, as an officer, raid leader and a tank who has missed 1 raid since we started, 25 man raiding is significantly harder from an organisation standpoint. Getting 25 people to sign on, join the raid and get to the instance on time can be stressful. Keeping 24 other people focused is harder. Distributing loot and making raid decisions that everyone is happy with and feels fair is a lot harder.
Other guilds may vary but the way our guild works is we have a fairly consistent core raiding group. There is a very fine line in maintaining your roster so you always have enough people to raid (and thankfully we haven't had to cancel a raid yet) but not so oversubscribed that people get benched. It is a lot harder to keep this balance with larger raids than it is smaller since there are more people involved who could potentially have social/other engagements that night and need replacing.
On the topic of loot, yeah 25 man can drop more items than 10 man, but not all items will be good for you. For a particular item there will be more competition in 25 than in 10. Your loot system also has to take this into account. If you use /roll, each item is an independent chance. You can go 25man, roll 4 times against 5 people and lose all the rolls because you have 1 in 6 chance of being highest, or you could go 10man, roll twice against 2 people but have 1 in 3 chance at each item.
Mar 11th 2009 10:06AM @Wulfhere: fail!
"Paladins want to tank, DPS and heal the best of any class"
No, if someone rolls a Paladin to tank, they just want to be competitive with other tanking classes. We don't want to be 'the best of any class' we just want to be a viable choice in whatever role we like to play.
"Paladins are generally the most eager to whinge for buffs of any class, and even when you get them, they're never enough."
Based on your experience/opinion maybe but I bet I could find you just as many people who say the same about every class. Way to generalise potentially a million players with a blanket statement.
"Paladins want to roll on every drop imaginable. Paladins are generally the first to complain about other classes being overly powerful in PvE and PvP from behind their immunity bubbles (the ones they can even still attack from behind now) and constantly complain about what they lack while ignoring all that they have."
What? Since when? To me it sounds like you are a caster who had a spelldmg weapon go to a Tankadin in TBC instead of you, or maybe a Holy paladin took some cloth healing gear from you and you felt it was unfair. Traditionally it's the hunter class that feels every drop is viable.
As for immunity bubbles (which 2 classes can counter), it's an important aspect of the class which some people seem to struggle to counter in PvP whereas others use it to their advantage. I bet you want the bubble removed but would hate to see the compensatory buffs since that would bring the Paladin back up to an equal level.
"but I've never seen a rogue say "Why are you hating on rogues, are you trying to offend the rogue community" because rogues generally understand that no one likes them. You should just accept that no one likes you, either."
you must have been under a rock then since there is so much QQ coming from classes, especially Mages and Rogues who are convinced, almost to levels of paranoia that Blizzard hates their class.
So how about you accept you are talking a bunch of whining crap and no one likes you.
Jan 27th 2009 8:21AM I can certainly second this strategy. As a Prot Paladin who's tanked KT every Naxx I've been to it's scary how often the other tank gets frost blocked in phase 3. On the 2nd week I went to Naxx (and another week since then) it happened and I picked up the adds and just tanked through it. With focused healing (and if you bring 3 healers, have not tried this tactic with 2) it's not really that bad, you just need to be quick to get in range and pick them up should the worst happen.