Sep 29th 2010 12:24AM Put me in as a seconding for Asheron's Call 1. :)
They put in a New Player Experience system some time ago, so curious what exactly it entails and how well it works in getting new players into the game.
Sep 11th 2010 10:24PM Along with Alison's comments, I also would query just how many of these 'competent' healers you're running with in any given attempt?
Otherwise, completely agree with Alison. Yes, you /can/ get away with the odd Backlash, and during ph1 it's not even worth moving out if you just have one stack. But you should be keeping an eye out for the blistering CD if you are going to keep casting during it.
Come time for Ph3 though, don't be a jackass. Unless of course your heal team is still sitting in the 7-9 mark for this fight due to their 'competence' (or more to the point by the sound of you, the lack of it on the rest of the raids part. Or perhaps just yours. *shrug*)
Aug 28th 2010 9:25PM I think Dragonrose on page 3 pretty much nailed this one, AoH / Area of Healing.
The latest build has made Efflorescence a bit TOO weak in my opinion. Sort of. The area certainly did need to be reduced, but the new healing circle is absolutely tiny, on top of that, the actual tick value is very very low as well.
Of course, on the other hand, they've made the crit talent for RG no longer rely on target having low HP any more, and that goes someway to offsetting that.
I'd certainly prefer to see the crit talent balanced around not requiring targets to be dead before casting RG on them, but I just don't think it's there yet.
Of course, as GC's mantra says, 'Don't worry about numbers yet'. So I won't. Too much.. (Ok, that's a lie, totally worried. Sort of. I'm sure it'll be fixed... Right? :P )
Aug 14th 2010 2:56AM I would assume - and hope - that glyphs will ultimately end up with their own bottom tab in the spellbook UI, which then further separates the glyph by spec/tree like skills do at the moment for abilities.
Will make them all readily available without cluttering the main spellbook.
Aug 8th 2010 6:42PM @Snuzzle
You're making the assumption that more than 5 pts in a single tier is a bad thing by the sounds of it, or that it is somehow wrong to back and chose a talent in a prior tier that you didn't fill out when first moving past that tier.
(((Had to remove this link, 3 link max per post. However, you should be able to gather from next link what I did to get here, also first tiers are kinda obvious anyways)))
There is disc in Tier 2, needing 2 more points to move on any further. You options are Soul Warding (pretty much one you're definitely going to want if you wish to cover the raid), Mental Agility to reduce the mana pain of casting shields, PoM, Renew if you use it and the like, or if you are not raid covering nor having any mana issues at all in the content you're in, you can take a look at Archangel / Evangelism. That's a great deal of choice right there.
This is how I filled out the required points to make it to Tier 4.
This makes Tier 5 available, and note I've only spent bare minimum points to progress at this point. There are a good number of talents I can fill out if I were to get stuck, and indeed may fill out anyway to complete the build.
(((Had to remove this link, 3 link max per post. However, you should be able to gather from next link what I did to get here)))
Alright, I jumped ahead to Tier 6. There are only 2 pts on this tier that I want for a PvE build right? But check out all the amazing talents I left incomplete in the earlier tiers to actually make it this far.
I need to spend another 3 points to open up the final tier. 3 points is not enough to complete everything I could possibly want!! I could spend 2 of them just finishing off Mental Agility if I need the mana help, I could spend another point in finishing off Borrowed Time in tier 4, or I could put another point in Aspiration in tier 5 to give me increased cool down availability.
And that is completely and utterly disregarding the damage talents such as Evanglism/Arch Angel/Atonement which you are against. Even disregarding those entirely, you have plenty of good options available, but not everyone is going to want to ignore these talents, and they'll have more option still.
Personally though, I'm kind of with you, so I filled out Mental Agility and borrowed time, meaning my final 'completed' disc tree looks like this:
(((Had to remove this link, 3 link max per post. However, you should be able to gather from next link what I did to get here)))
Leaving 10 points to either supplement disc with the damage talents, or to dip over into Holy.
For my completed Disc build, it'd probably look like this:
So yeah, I'm afraid I don't agree with you on the lack of choice in the disc tree. In fact, Disc not only has choice, but it in fact is one of the few classes that has choice that will also *impact the way it plays*.
Atonement alone may actually become worth the points depending on how much mana Smite costs at 85 and the damage you can eke out of it, because at 3/3 atonement, smite becomes a 45% * Smite Dmg *SMART HEAL*. This is no sneezing matter!
Edit: Fark. Only allowed 3 URLs. I'm going to have to cut some of the interim steps out. :(
Aug 8th 2010 4:04PM 12.5% crit is rediculously trivial to reach, which is why for the purposes of the RG calc it's a pretty non event. The main reason I think you're going to want crit is for the HPS/HPM increase it'll give through all HoTs ticking, and not having to cast RG over and over when you're trying to get an Effloresence in a needed area.
Now, I haven't levelled terribly far in beta. I've done a bit of Hyjal on my mage and warrior, but I am aware the ratings required per percent take some rather ginormous leaps and bounds, so who knows, perhaps 12.5% for our HoT ticks will be harder to reach than I think, but I can't imagine it remaining that low anything beyond getting heroic dungeon gear.
Aug 8th 2010 5:13AM Note that revitalise is not increasing your chance to crit at all, all it is increasing is the amount of mana you get back when a LB or RG tick does crit.
Not that I'm arguing that my build is definitely going to be better, there is a major bug with MP5 on the beta servers right now (for all mana classes, not just druids) so it is pretty much impossible to judge whether that extra % regen is going to make or break us or not. But you're right that the 1% healing on periodics probably isn't going to either way.
As for crit being our most valuable stat after SP? Debatable. We'll certainly be desiring it more, don't get me wrong. With all HoT ticks being able to crit as a base ability, and having personal revitilise effects on some of these ticks, along with requiring crit to trigger effloresence (we don't want to have to cast the horribly mana inefficient RG too many times to trigger this after all).. Yeah, it'll be important.
But I think Haste is going to impact our HPS just as much if not more so, because all our HoTs will *also* gain benefit from haste as a base ability; and unlike live where if you have the rapid rejuv glyph the duration is reduced, in Cata the duration remains the same but you get MORE ticks for the same mana over the same duration. You gain HPS and Mana Efficiency.
On top of that, we seem to be expected to do a lot more direct healing than we've done in the past as well; haste will be brilliant for this also.
Note I've done no simming or even napkin math to solidly back up my assertion, it's simply what I believe to be true based on knowledge of the new mechanics and our current weightings. :)
Aug 8th 2010 3:28AM Sorry Redielen, missed your post until now.
Some might be using 'Bloat' to describe anything about a tree they don't like, but I think it still carries a very specific reason as to why you don't like a tree. My thoughts on a 'Bloated' tree have always been that while it may have a lot of talents; there are many of these that you'd never want to actually take.
I've heard it the other way more recently as well, where there are too many must-have talents within a single tree leaving very few points to spend elsewhere, and I think to some degree this may be a legitimate complaint with the 31 pt talent trees.
I've been using mage in a lot of my examples on the prior page, so lets change it up a bit since you mention healers specifically. Druid is my healer of choice, so lets take a look at Resto as it stands presently..
Ok, hardly started and look at that. To go any further at all, I *have* to take a point in Perseverance. No choice. Have to. It isn't that this is a particularly bad talent, taking less damage all the time may help on fights that have unavoidable AoE damage; but considering we've been told we'll be seeing less of these fights in Cata? Also that the Mage version of this talent for the same number of points also buffs another ability of the class? It's rather lacklustre.
Moving on though, here is the 'completed' version of the build:
It really doesn't offer any room for choice within the main tree. Sure, you could drop down to 1/2 Empowered Touch for the full 3/3 revitalise perhaps if you really needed it, but there really is no other room for debate or question.
Where is the choice? In this instance, there isn't any. (I'm sure glyphs will further specialise us, but surely the talents can do more too.)
Now don't get me wrong. I fully understand this is early (Many of the druid resto talents are totally broke in the beta right now for instance) and that there will be more passes to come.
But right now, that's it. If /anyone/ thinks they have a good case for arguing a different resto build than what I've shown, I would actually really love to hear it and your reasonings! I might be getting blinded by things again. :)
Now how did this end up speaking to bloat? Well.. It didn't really, by either definition in this case. Heh. In fact, if anything, the resto tree is suffering the complete opposite problems with an utter lack of bloat. Perhaps this was a bad example for the topic as a whole, but it does go to show that it isn't all rainbows and sunshine for the healers! At least, not all of them! Not yet!
Aug 8th 2010 3:06AM @zdave
I will definitely grant you that Nether Vortex and Invocation are situational, but neither are minor. Of course, in the instance of Nether Vortex, the situational aspect may become so small as to be completely unworthwhile to ever take it other than while solo questing, unless they do something really funky to tanks that cause one or more of the tank types to either lose their slows or de-incentivise them taking the talents (for the ones like Pally that have to talent for it).
Invocation though may fall into disuse on the odd fight, but it seems even most bosses I've encountered so far have some ability that can and should be interrupted. Of course, if this doesn't carry over into Cata raiding; may have to revisit this one as well. But assuming it persists right the way through - and I believe it will - this while technically situational will nearly always be a really quite significant DPS increase.
Of course, it's really difficult to say any of this with any certainty even with being in beta. So much may yet change, we haven't seen all the bosses that'll be available in dungeons let alone any of the raid ones, but at the very least I'll grant you that Nether Vortex is probably really quite dropable when discussing endgame/group specs, I had overlooked that one. :)
Aug 8th 2010 1:22AM @zdave:
These choices can be fun indeed, I just don't think they quite match up to the epicosity we were lead to believe was incoming from the initial posting regarding the 31 pt talents.
The other problem I have is that there isn't a huuuge deal of room for actually picking them up. At all.
For instance, here is what I would consider a reasonably complete Arc Mage spec:
I've gone 2/2 Incanters Absorption, and for some fights, that might be useless freeing those points up, but I have a feeling more often than not it'd be a desirable talent for output.
Even assuming it isn't though, you can freely remove one point from it, but then the other point has to be spent in one of the other talents before you can get to Arcane Power.
End result? Assuming I'm right about Incanter's Absorption, you have 1 talent to spend around those 'fun' talents. A single talent point. If I'm wrong, you have 3 points which is better, and probably fits within the reasonable realm of having to make an actual decision on the matter. But for many of the talents, that means you get precisely one, one option out of the four (five if you count IA as optional).
Not sure about you, but that strikes me as a little harsh. Even 2/5 would have been better by a wide margin.
Still! It's a far cry better than the first iterations of the 31 pt trees, and we're still going to get many more passes yet, so there is still a good chance things will improve even further. :)