Jul 2nd 2010 1:09PM drool....... can't wait to see this
Apr 29th 2010 9:54AM completely agree with your opinion. I also hope that blizzard will bring up the difficulty and requirements up from 10 to 25 instead of 25 to 10 or else it's going to be closer to a VoA loot slot machine type of raid (yes no one can make me believe that 10 mans are in every point harder then 25, its not period!).
can't wait to see the start of cataclysm raiding and see all the small guilds who are saying "great changes" being the first ones to start demanding a nerf on bosses because they are too hard ;)
And i can bet that after the first couple of months after catalysm starts you will see exactly that the top charts of boss kills on 10 man will belong to now existing 25 man raiding guilds (hardcore and non hardcore) and none of these so called "10 man only hardcore guilds" that believe they do "more difficult content then 25 man because of gear limitations" will be close to the first 30 spots in any server.
Apr 29th 2010 6:47AM not only the server economy... for all you casual players that enjoy so much the dungeon finder, get ready to have the queue time expand quite a bit!
because i'm pretty sure that with the 25 man guilds disbanding and ppl leaving the game, your tank/healer comunity will decrease a lot since most of the good tank/healers are raiding main chars o!!
wanna lvl the game for 10 and 25 man raiding, go for it blizzard, just don't complain that your subscribers leave like rats because normal raiding guild won't accept new players (pretty sure that's gonna happen since the WotLK generation is all badged gear with no raiding experience), casual players will even be more casual since they will find worse and worse pugs because most players won't have raiding experience and they will probably get bored really quick of only doing 5 man dungeons with queues of 30 minutes.
so go for it blizzard, kill the game and we will see you on the next generation MMO
Apr 29th 2010 6:36AM if 10 man is harder then 25 man, care to explain how even at the release of naxx, 10 man world kills always came first then 25 man?
Apr 29th 2010 6:11AM what's going to kill the 25 man content is one single change: SHARED LOCKDOWN
getting the same loot on 10 or 25 man having the same difficulty lvl on both, great for me. i completly understand the 10 man guild points that they should not have the best gear in the game restricted by the available players they have.
The hole casual vs hardcore player thing is stupid, that's not the point here, the point is big guild vs small guild. big raiding guilds need more stuff to do since big guilds normally are less casual online time wise than small raiding guilds and having a shared lockdown will probably make big raiding guild being ripped into small 10 man teams and loose a bit of the unity they now have doing 25 mans.
because let's face it most big raiding guilds that do 25 with the purpose of doing end game content and not going for the US/EU/WORLD first kills will devolve to 10 man teams because 1º it's easier to get 10 man well balanced teams online then 25, 2º it's a shared lockdown, 3º less raiding time required per night probably
but i only have a wish for blizzard, if they really want to go with this through make the 10 man difficulty even higher than 25 man are right now so that the status of raiding (10 man or 25) doesn't because so mundane as 5 man dungeons runs and to see how many of the ppl on these comentaries that are saying "great changes" because they are thinking they are going to be on the same playfield that 25 man raiding players just because they will have the same loot are really going to be able to keep raiding and killing bosses.
i'm 95% sure that what we will see is a lot of crying after these goes up because "the raids are too damn hard" and the only progress on 10 man you will see will be from teams that devolved from now existing 25 man raiding guilds because they are used to having to deal with more stuff at the same time and know a lot more about positioning then 10 man pugs.......
so blizzard wanna do this go ahead!!! but either maintain a very dificult raiding game or else i'll drop this game in a heartbeat if i start felling that raiding has become like VoA =loot slot machine
Apr 29th 2010 5:53AM i don't think they mean hardcore like 25 man is more hardcore, i think they are saying 25 man raiders that raid 5-6 days a week.
i agree leveling the field between 10 and 25 man in difficulty, but 25 man raids are always harder to organize and do because you have more ppl in it so a lot more can go wrong that with 10 man, especially with positioning the raid, which is always easier to do with 10 man (saurfang/putricide are good examples) and with dealing with for example the blood queen bitting order.
these are points that blizzard won't be able make the same on 10 and 25 man so 25 man will always be harder to a degree than 10 mans. And let's face it the shared lockdown + doing 25 only gets you a couple more drops isn't a big reward to go for that extra trouble, especially since for hardcore guilds (again ppl who raid 5-6 nights) is much harder to keep a good player bases to garante that 25 balanced class raids happens every 5-6 nights.
Apr 29th 2010 5:32AM i know putting all the 25 man on hardcore mode helps you make you point, but that's what flaws your whole point.
there are hardcore 25 guilds, semi-hardcore 25 guilds, and social 25 man raid guilds so it doesn't boil to casual player vs hardcore player.
what boils to is big raiding guilds vs small IRL friends guilds, because let's face it ppl who do 10 man only raiding guilds are ppl who fetch 9 IRL friends and go raiding.
The real casual player doesn't guild raid, they pug, because when they try to guild raid one of three things happens:
- or they appear every raiding day the guild schedules and there they stop being really "casual" players
- they lose their spot to another member that appears more often because the guild has more then 10 members
- the 10 members guild dismantles because they almost never raid because they are always 1 player short
that's for me the real boil of this. It's a debate of ppl who like to casually raid but that's not their main purpose on this game and ppl who love to raid and want to do that as often as they can, and let's face it a person who likes to raid won't go to a small guild (if it's not 10 and only 10 of IRL friends) because the raiding night can be spoiled by someone missing. And let's face it, WoW is a several millions subscriptions game and i really don't that everyone one are IRL friends :P
i understand that balancing the field of 25 man and 10 man raids has to be done, it's on blizzard interest and i'm pretty sure when i have less time to raid i'll be glad with these changes, but of all these changes the one that in my opinion is crushing the real 25 man raiding players (and i'm saying the NON hardcore) is the shared lockdown because it completly destroys the game for big non hardcore guilds because of two points:
- we start fearing getting locked down on a bad 25 man week on the guild (a week where we only have a good 25 class balance group for a couple of days then we don't have enough ppl or we are lacking classes) because that will disable us salvaging the week doing 10 mans to have fun.
- it will be harder to get raiding replacements during the week because nobody in their right mind will say to a guild "simply don't raid until you get called to one of our 25 man raids" an aperson who is online one night and doesn't have a spot for a guild raid, they will pug to enjoy the night, and with the present lockdown system they can go pug 10 man without destroying the possibility of raiding with the guild the next night. Especially on middle-end expansion content where for example now 90% of pug raiding is solely ICC.
With the shared lookdown it's simply impossible to do so and in the end of the month a person will say "ok i just wasted a month subscription and didn't do any worthwhile fun raiding". Even the math proves it, you only have 4 lockdowns per month on a specific raiding instance, at first with several instances at launch that's not a problem, but on the next only 1 raid patches it's a big deal.
Apr 29th 2010 4:52AM i have to admit my opinion of this change is still very split because i'm a semi-harcore 25 man guild player and love the 25 man experience. i know hardcore 10 mans will crush me for saying this, but no 10 man raid compares to the epic felling of having 25 ppl killing a big boss.
i know the hole 25 man gear raids come to 10 and kill the achivements for 10 man only guilds, yes that's something Blizzard has to fix, but killing 25 man raids it's not the way.
If we let them continue this way what's stopping them to make 5 man raids on the next expansion?? from vanilla to BC it went from 40 to 25, on LK heroic modes were introduce to reduce the difficulty on normal modes, now it seems we are going even to even less dificulty going to 10 man even with the "ohh 25 and 10 man difficulty will be similar", sorry to say but they will never be able to pull that off, organizing and doing a 25 man fight is always and will always be harder then 10 man fights because the scale of actions/reactions on a fight it's much higher with more ppl, that's a fact period!
i know that for casual players this is great because they can just get 9 friends and go raiding. but know i'll give you a question...how will you solve the raiding schedule if you decide to expand your guild to 20 or more ppl and don't have the class balance to go with 2 10 man raids? how will you solve who goes to the raid and who stays put? even for you casual players, 25 man raids solves that problem. and you really want me to believe that with the new reward system you are going 25 man instead of 10 man? hell no, i'll bet 9 of each 10 casual guild that are on this situation will just say to the guys who are on the entrance of the instance but the raid is full "sorry you can come next week, just waste the money you are paying on the subscription doing other stuff that probably are already bored doing"
yes because there is a subscription, we are paying MONTHLY FEES for this game, and i don't think the community who loves to do 25 man should have their heart ripped. like some of the authors of this article i also believe blizzard is giving me a good reason to stop playing, ESPECIALLY with the shared lockdown.
i know it's only my opinion, but i'm not one of those loot whores, i just enjoy a big guild raiding, and the feeling that we will have to split the guild everynight into 2 or more 10 man raiding groups to keep the guild competitive with the rest of the server (especially with the stupid GS requirements that now lives on every server) just kills a bit of my fun.
ohh well will have to wait and see, but i'm a bit sad with the WoW community especially the so called 10 man only guilds because the only thing they can say is "hardcore 25 man guilds are coming down, no more status quo to them nor better loot" and call us "loot driven players"...seems that the ones looking for the loot/achivements are you since this change doesn't destroy in a bit the gameplay you already had, but destroys the gameplay that most 25 man raiding guilds had!
Apr 26th 2010 2:10PM same loot tables yes but i don't know what you mean by same ease since you will have now 25 man difficulty not 10 man difficulty. if they increase the 10 man difficulty to an equivalent level of difficulty that 25 mans (and it's not the same for many reasons independent to gear lvl) have get really to wipe way more than before. Because i don't think if they are going to implement this the 10 man difficulty will remain the same.