Jun 1st 2009 5:53PM This is flawed.
PUG is essentially random. But information on gear reduces randomness by a great deal. Information on experience/boss kills further reduces this randomness.
If you think the randomness is GOOD and fun and you don't mind wasting time on the randomness factor, then all these things that reduce randomness is bad for you simply because they are not perfect and could mistakenly weed out good people in some cases. However if you prefer NOT to waste time on randomness, you'd rather be wrong than be sorry.
If you were an HR in a top tier corporation troubled by all the applicants that claimed that they had really good education but turned out to be idiots, an information site that verified that all these people actually graduated from top colleges or didn't graduate from high school is of immense help. True, there are idiots from Stanford or Harvard and there are geniuses that are high school drop-outs. Just like there are lots of skilled players in ungemmed greens that could do better dps and knows the fight better than people with BiS items.
But rather than taking this as your guidance in life - which is what a lot of you are arguing - I think most people in the society sees that as more of an exception than the rule, *generally*. Let the exceptions justify themselves and present the redeeming factors if they will, and let the raid leaders have the choice in how they would like to consider these things.
DON'T force the raid leaders to "be humane and simply ignore information and embrace randomness." That's not a God-given rule that everyone has to abide by. The ones that form raids - they are the ones that pick people, they are the ones that should be able to decide the standards they want to base their choices on. Not you.
Jun 1st 2009 5:05PM Being carried through once in some random heroics is one thing. Being carried through 10 times through KT and Y-S is another. Plus if one has at least been carried though Y-S 10 times, I think most raid leaders is safer going with this guy than someone that has only done several heroics. You simply combine this info with the gear info and you can make a pretty good call on this person.
There is always randomness in PUGs. Gear information reduces the randomness immensely. Boss kill information further reduces the randomness. I don't see why information and utility that reduces this randomness is bad or worthless.
Jun 1st 2009 4:51PM That is a raid leader's choice isn't it? Why are you asking all raiders in the world to do what YOU think is good, and dissing an information utility that helps raid leaders make different choices than yours? Are yours the god given standard that everyone has to obey?
Jun 1st 2009 4:47PM To: Wither
All of your examples are things considered "private". Medical records. E-mails. Browsing history. As you said, "none of the info is publicly available." Legally protected information that no unauthorized party can access or disclose. And that's the basis of your argument - "it's better to keep some information private".
So when you use these things to compare to your WOW statistics and gear data, all of which is obviously PUBLIC and searchable on the WOW Armory to begin with - if you have a problem with that, go sue Blizzard, not diss information utility that COLLECT PUBLICLY AVIALABLE DATA - you know you are just making an argument for argument's sake.
If you still cannot see the difference here, I don't know what else to say to make you understand.
Jun 1st 2009 10:26AM This utility gives raid leaders a CHOICE. It's MORE information for him to DECIDE on whether to completely rely on, or selectively use as he wishes, or simply disregard becuase of other factors.
Why is more choices ever bad? So what if some of the instances are easy now? Can't you still run into undergeared people that have never done it before? Would you say the same about Ulduar? About achievement runs? Wouldn't more information, even if incomplete, help in a way? Why is the existence of this utility "bad" or "useless"?
I simply don't understand some people some time. Anything that's imperfect is essentially worthless to them - "skill is more important than everything -> this utility doesn't measure skill -> this utility is useless." The world is just so black and white to these people...
Jun 1st 2009 10:10AM This is an excellent tool. In a crap shoot world that is PUG, more information is *always* better than less. All we need is to know how to use this properly - rather than dismissing it as soon as you see a potential issue, think of whether you can overcome that issue.
For example, if you have a "done it know the fight farmed the boss but it simply doesn't show on my alts" issue - well, why is this little problem sufficient to make you diss this whole utility / diss the whole concept of checking people up before we PUG with them? Tell the PUG leader to check up on your main! If needed log onto your main to whisper him to confirm your identity. Simple as that. If you are allowing that sort of minor issue to steer you into a blind "I hate these sort of things" state of mind, you are simply not using your brain.
Aside from that, some of you are also misguided in that:
- Just because you know the fight as a tank doesn't mean you know it as healer; just because you know the fight as a melee dps doesn't mean you necessarily know it as ranged. It's really for the leader to judge whether your experience is good enough based on the information he gets.
- Just because you are experienced on your main doesn't mean you are not undergeared on your alt. Again, it's really for the leader to judge whether your experience is good enough based on the information he gets.
- Saying "if you're gonna check up on people and get info, don't PUG at all" is simply not very bright. The world is not black and white. Having more information is always useful - it's up to the raid leader to use it well or, if he chooses, disregard it.
- If you love to PUG for its randomness, great, more power to you - but don't diss a utility that helps the others that HATE PUGGING because of its randomness but have no choice. You may well be in the minority.
Remember, just because some people crash their cars and kill people accidentally doesn't mean cars should be banned. Same thing with information-providing utilities like this.